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[adgrl]

I have a very general question!
I'm a new phd student and working professional. Recently, some of my close friends that I've had throughout my life have seemed to distance themselves from me since becoming a student/professional.
Quick example:
My best friend since the third grade has a general AS degree and has a good job (we actually make about the same!), and we enjoy a lot of the same things together - we even have our own language of sorts. Since I invited him to a get together with other phd students, he has become nearly invisible to me. I can't think of anything that I said or did that would've been offensive or snotty, and everyone there was down to earth and receptive to him (there was no discussion of research projects or literature, the conversation was kept light). I truly think he's put off by what I'm doing.
I am starting to bond very well with the other students in my concentration - I've known them for about a year and a half, and we get together regularly.
My question is, has something similar happened to you? Have people that you have been close to distanced themselves from you because of your academic/life choices?

[asteria]

Unfortunately, no, though some distance from them might be helpful sometimes.

They do promptly stop listening or interrupt me if I dare to talk about --

A. books
B. students
C. papers
D. my boss(es)
E. people I go to school with
F. gargoyles--non-grad. students just hate the mention of gargoyles.

Just kidding--but replace "gargoyles" with "libraries" and you get the idea.

Of course, none of these rules apply to them. They are free to talk about their jobs, bosses, projects, offices/cubicles, co-workers. But I, since I live such a privileged, fabulous existence, I have no right to b!tch, kvetch, or brag about anything. Either that, or everything I think or say is just so boring that they can't help but shut me up. That might be it.

I know this doesn't help your situation, but think about it: do you really want to have to watch what you say because you might sound too smart or too whatever for your friends? If he doesn't want to talk to you until he gets used to your grad. studenting--no big deal, more time for reading.

[oseph]

Yes.  This happens in any number of situations where your affiliation with a new group changes your outlook, topics of conversation, demeanor, whatever.  Happens to people who join student organizations, religious groups, who have children, who take up sports, etc.  It is natural.  When you are in a PhD program, suddenly you have a whole new host of concerns, and it is normal that you would be drawn toward people who share those and feel somewhat alienated from people who can't understand what you're experiencing.  It would work the same way if someone you were close to suddenly took up a new and time-intensive hobby or made a huge career switch or had kids.  It is, of course, important to maintain friends outside of your PhD program, but I found that the worst thing I could do was to feel weird about the new dynamic in interactions with my non-PhD friends.  It really just requires you to be able to talk about things beyond your immediate and pressing concerns - which can be difficult, if you're the one that suddenly has the new and pressing concerns - but the best way to do it is to try to be sincerely interested in your friends' lives.

[asteria]

Yes.  This happens in any number of situations where your affiliation with a new group changes your outlook, topics of conversation, demeanor, whatever.  Happens to people who join student organizations, religious groups, who have children, who take up sports, etc.  It is natural.  When you are in a PhD program, suddenly you have a whole new host of concerns, and it is normal that you would be drawn toward people who share those and feel somewhat alienated from people who can't understand what you're experiencing.  It would work the same way if someone you were close to suddenly took up a new and time-intensive hobby or made a huge career switch or had kids.  It is, of course, important to maintain friends outside of your PhD program, but I found that the worst thing I could do was to feel weird about the new dynamic in interactions with my non-PhD friends.  It really just requires you to be able to talk about things beyond your immediate and pressing concerns - which can be difficult, if you're the one that suddenly has the new and pressing concerns - but the best way to do it is to try to be sincerely interested in your friends' lives.

Yes, Oseph is right. It is important to stay interested in your friend's lives and it can also give you a bit of healthy perspective. But in my experience, this is not necessarily reciprocated. Friends who have kids, get divorced, get a fabulous new job, etc, still fit within a dynamic that most people understand, can relate to, and know how to respond to. Giving up six years of one's life to books and for uncertain prospects does not fit, and at the same time it has a mystique for people outside of academia. They think it's weird, they think we are smarter than them, and they don't want to hear about it.

Sorry if I am being overly negative, but this has been my experience for a long time.

[gennimom]

In my first course of my program, we were told that our friends would change, whether we wanted them to or not. After you earn those three letters, you tend to gather more friends with those same three letters after their names and the old friends tend to drift away. You have more in common with people who have a similar background and friends who didn't go to grad school don't have that. It is nothing you have done wrong, and they may not consciously realize they are doing it to you. You can try to keep those friends, but don't be surprised if they drift away despite your best efforts.

[frogfactory]

I've generally found a similar effect (not in my current program, where I'm geographically distant from my friends instead), but rather because my friends now have decent jobs and their idea of a typical night out/weekend trip/whatever is way over my budget.  There's also some sense that still being a student means I'm just not as grown up as they are, out in the real world.

[oseph]

I've generally found a similar effect (not in my current program, where I'm geographically distant from my friends instead), but rather because my friends now have decent jobs and their idea of a typical night out/weekend trip/whatever is way over my budget.  There's also some sense that still being a student means I'm just not as grown up as they are, out in the real world.

Yes, chime on this.  It can be difficult to have a conversation when one side is talking about where to go on vacation and what color to paint the living room to match the newly-upholstered furniture, and the other is talking about how many people can be stuffed into a hotel room at a conference.

But I actually found that once I'd finished my degree, my relationships with non-academic friends improved, because even with job stress, I was no longer in that weird monkish grad school place where I sat around in my pajamas for days looking through books.  Interacting with students and administrative staff on a regular basis grounded me again and helped me relate better to my friends.

[thundering_m]

Not all friendships are as complete as they were when we were kids; I find I must compartmentalize my affiliations to some degree. The more complex we become, the less simple our compatibilities. Ross on Friends had an unlikely PhD, and his friendships were defined by his dorkiness, not his brilliance. He seeks affection from his friends, not professional validation.

'Taking someone down a notch' is a classic response to feeling down a notch ourselves. Hence the snarkiness and irritation in many a discourse. It is their own hypersensitivity to flaws in their intelligence in a high risk situation (am I smart enough to be a grad student) that makes them fear that their intelligence is a flaw elsewhere (they hate me for being so smart). It's a classic imposter syndrome, thinking they are faking it as a grad student (or even a professor). They have an insatiable need for validation that renders them oblivious to levels of individuality and the banter of teasing that were natural when they were young.

There is no mathematical equation is balancing one's high level of analytical skill and grasp of concepts with poor athletic ability or neglected housework. It is sad to see some grad students, especially women, underplay their intelligence in order to safeguard a role of  faux egalitarianism. In my own case, I openly claim that I chose this profession so I could be justifiably absent-minded. But I digress.

[marigolds]

Also, grad students are really boring to people who are not interested in the same ideas.  My husband cannot stand going to grad student parties; it's not because he feels threatened by how great and super-intellectual we are or that he can't keep up, it's just that departmental gossip and a bunch of talk about Kant don't float his boat. 

[asteria]

I am not sure I understand you, TM. It doesn't sound like anyone in the OP was taking anyone else down a notch. Professional validation? I don't see that either.
 
And of course a grad. student's research is boring to friends! It's usually boring to other grad. students. It doesn't seem like that is what happened. OP said nobody talked about work.

But, is inter-office drama or shop talk, or complaining about the way patients behave in a waiting room really so much more interesting than departmental gossip? Talking about Kant at a party--for how long? If it's a quick banter, I can't see how it's worse than any of the other things people get together and talk about. I don't buy that grad. school is necessarily more boring than anything else, or that PhDs have to be cute and dorky like Ross from Friends, or that impostor syndrome drives me to want to let Kant have his fifteen seconds at the party.

If you want to drone on for hours about your low stipend and your adviser or your Kant papers, you deserve to be ignored, after a reasonable while. But there are some people with whom your relationship will change, and it can just as easily be their problem as yours.

[sugaree]

I don't know that one necessarily has to abandon old (non-academic) friends and develop/maintain new friendships with your grad cohort. But what might (likely) happen is that these two social circles don't easily mix. This is to be expected, as people evolve and pursue other interests.

Or, at least this is what happened to me. I still have my "best friends" from junior high on, and then I have close friends from grad school. And now I have a circle of friends from my current job. And all these social circles are scattered throughout North America, so even if I wanted them to mix, they wouldn't.

[dr_prephd]

I still have my "best friends" from junior high on, and then I have close friends from grad school. And now I have a circle of friends from my current job. And all these social circles are scattered throughout North America, so even if I wanted them to mix, they wouldn't.

Except on this weird thing called Facebook.

I agree with you, Suagree. I can't envision my friends from high school and beyond, my graduate school friends, my work friends, and my friends of friends all hanging out together comfortably. The 40-year-old woman who wears outfits from Dress Barn and sensible low heels and a nice layer of make-up isn't going to get along so well with the dudes from my hubby's college days who listen to music too loud, shotgun beers, and curse a lot. I can easily hang out with both, but it's all about context. At certain periods, I'm more likely to hang out with one group more often than another, just because of geography, or scheduling, or intimate relationships, or whatever.

I have lost a few friends over conflicting contexts, misinterpretations, or just plain life circumstances. It sucks each time, but c'est la vie.

[scampster]

My roommate is most definitely not an academic and not really the intellectual sort. But she's nice and fun and all sorts of other good things. I felt horrible when she told me once that many of my grad school friends talk down to her.  I had never even noticed.  So I am not saying your friends at the party did the same, but I think sometimes grad students can unconsciously do it, especially if they are in groups. But sometimes it is simply the fact that some of us are socially awkward and don't know what else to talk about besides Kant and others perceive it as snobby :-)

My department is really lame, so I actually have very few graduate student friends from my department. Either they are from completely different departments or people I have met from doing other things in town. My townie friends might not truly grasp what goes on during my prelims, but they still take me out drinking after I'm done.

[thundering_m]

I am not sure I understand you, TM. It doesn't sound like anyone in the OP was taking anyone else down a notch.
 

Oh dear, ideaofa. I didn't intend at all to be talking about forumite to forumite discourse. I was referring to the experience some grad students or the simply highly educated who find themselves the recipient of a very critical eye. Much like the interest in paparazzi photos catching celebrities in compromising positions. If you have ever felt like someone is trying to point out you are no better than they are in spite of a doctorate, you have experienced what I tried so suggest, albeit lamely.

I should apologize for a digression that simply extended the conversation into a more generalized area. The mention of people who suffer from the imposter syndrome was generic, not in reference to any of the forumites. Me, for instance. I certainly went through a period of hypersensitivity... returning to graduate school surrounded by people more than a decade younger than I, having to give up the context where I had reached a pretty strong level of authority to begin swimming in the shark infested waters of R1 TT yadayadayada.

I was in higher ed for a few years before the Dr. title came naturally. About the same time I noticed that when someone outside academia who called me "Dr." in ironic quotes, I had no need to beat them to the punch by minimizing it. Now I smile and shrug. It is what it is; I am what I am. I don't need to brag but I don't need to deny. i guess it was about that time that updating my CV stopped being torture. I still have an aversion to bragging about everything...performance review dossiers are a nightmare not just for the tedium of assembling them but for the whole 'look at me aren't I great' message it must bear. Ack. Now that I am on personnel committees I don't interpret them that way at all. It's just the nutritional analysis of the ingredients in a colleague I already know.

Your points are well-taken, and I think we agree on many of them. I must remember that as someone who has been around since plant life evolved, I have a rhinoceros hide and heft that can bruise tender shoots. Sorry. I have droned on enough.
 
 

[patchouli]

Read Hunger of Memory: The Education of Richard Rodriguez; it explores the same dynamic from the a slightly different perspective.