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[mathprofdk]

Background: I'm teaching an online statistics course for the first time this semester.  I assess the students in several different ways - weekly discussions, reflections, online homework, and homework submitted to a drop box in the CMS.  I also give 4 proctored exams, and I'll be giving a proctored final.

Each week, I grade the drop box homework using my tablet PC, making notations on errors and what should be corrected just as if it were a paper assignment.  I then upload it as feedback for the students.  For the reflections, I sometimes record an audio comment, since the questions tend to be more in-depth and would require far too much typing for me.  I also grade the exams like you normally would, and I offer the students the option of picking them up or having them mailed to their homes.

So here's my problem: In addition to the horrible retention rate (I've been told this is common for online classes), I have several students who just don't take the time to read the feedback.  They then continue to make those same errors in subsequent weeks, and again on the exams.  Not only that, I have only 4 students who either pick up their exams or have me mail them.

Is this typical?  Should I be doing something different?  I know students in the regular in-person classes don't always read the feedback, but this feels like a colossal waste of time.

Any suggestions?

[comp_queen]

This is my second try with this post--timeout again.  Mods.  Fix this.  Now.  Thanks.

Of course students aren't reading the feedback--are you new to teaching? 

Feedback on assignments is not for students.  It's eyewash for them so they know we read their work and it allows us to write, "I provide written commentary on all graded assignments" on our annual reports.

Each semester, you'll find the few students who do pay attention to the feedback; it's fine to spend more time and effort on their feedback.  For the rest of them, sad to say, do the minimum to be clear about what's good and what needs to improve; otherwise don't waste your time.

[voxprincipalis]

This is my second try with this post--timeout again.  Mods.  Fix this.  Now.  Thanks.

Of course students aren't reading the feedback--are you new to teaching? 

Feedback on assignments is not for students.  It's eyewash for them so they know we read their work and it allows us to write, "I provide written commentary on all graded assignments" on our annual reports.

CQ, what is with you lately? You said elsewhere you'd been having a bad week, but it seems like you're taking it out on the fora, if your posts of the last few days are any indication. I hope everything is all right with you, and I'm puzzled as to why your tone seems so different nowadays.

VP

[conjugate]

MathProfDK, you might, next semester, make it clear to your students that you expect them to respond to feedback, and count off more harshly if they repeat a mistake in a later exam.  Then explain at length to those who seem concerned.  But lots of my online students eventually gave up worrying about the class, and just took the F with little apparent concern.

Comp_Queen, you sound a little bitter and burnt out, no doubt with good reason.  Hang in there; it will get better.  The semester is nearly over.  I offer a sympathetic hug.

[dellaroux]

I don't recommend this myself (or, better put, I wouldn't be likely to do this myself) but one friend I know in a face-to-face class setting only provides feedback on students' final papers if they supply an SASE when they turn in the paper.

He says he gets one or two envelopes per class per semester. The rest just take the grade and don't seem to care what was behind it.

(I, on the other hand, force-feed mine red ink....)

[dept_geek]

Reading thru CQ's harshed mellow, it a way, she is right. The students mostly don't read the feedback. Heck, mine are not even reading the posted solutions. They don't ask questions, they don't stop by my office, most don't even use the free tutor session. Then, they wonder why the exam average is a "D" or worse.

In advice gathered from this forum, I now:
- use rubrics and cut 'n' paste heavily (check things off, add/delete phrases, add up the numbers, save as PDF or copy the plain text in to the comments area, post. Done)

- Take off points (like conjugate suggests) for any mistake repeated

- Worry about the under-performing students as much as they worry about the class. This alone will help.

OP, feel free to PM me.. I'm teaching stats online as well and have been for a while.

[kedves]

Reading thru CQ's harshed mellow, it a way, she is right. The students mostly don't read the feedback. Heck, mine are not even reading the posted solutions. They don't ask questions, they don't stop by my office, most don't even use the free tutor session. Then, they wonder why the exam average is a "D" or worse.

In advice gathered from this forum, I now:
- use rubrics and cut 'n' paste heavily (check things off, add/delete phrases, add up the numbers, save as PDF or copy the plain text in to the comments area, post. Done)

- Take off points (like conjugate suggests) for any mistake repeated

- Worry about the under-performing students as much as they worry about the class. This alone will help.

OP, feel free to PM me.. I'm teaching stats online as well and have been for a while.

These suggestions are right on the mark.  Students like and want feedback--it has symbolic value--but they won't do anything with it unless points are involved.  For better or worse, most of them think about each situation in terms of little increments, not as parts that allow accomplishment of a greater goal (e.g., learning the subject, writing better).  I have changed my grading system over the years to adapt.  My goal is something like Jeremy Bentham's machine that could measure units of pleasure and pain with a desired action obtaining just about +1 reward units more than the undesired action.  The same idea of rational expenditure of time and effort works for us:  spend just enough time to achieve a reasonable percentage of your goal of giving feedback, but don't overspend.  As we approach diminishing returns in this area, the costs are high in terms of time and morale.

[comp_queen]

Conjugate and VP--Thanks for the concern.  I'm more or less okay; it has been a particularly difficult week both personally and professionally in the midst of an ongoing (we're past the year mark) family difficulty that I've been deliberately vague about on the fora to avoid outing myself.

As kedves points out though, my advice to the OP in this situation isn't bitter; it's cynical.  Students don't read feedback (at least most of them don't).  It's a waste of our time to provide the kind/level of feedback we expected as students--except for those few students who we actually figure out are reading it.

[barcrossliar]

I wouldn't bother with this for every assignment, but for larger ones, you can require that students write a brief paragraph on the feedback they got last time and what they've done differently.  It's good training for writing letters to editors about reviewer comments.

-+LR

[comp_queen]

I wouldn't bother with this for every assignment, but for larger ones, you can require that students write a brief paragraph on the feedback they got last time and what they've done differently.  It's good training for writing letters to editors about reviewer comments.

-+LR

This is excellent advice for upper level majors and early grad students; I just got a much-needed laugh when I imagined what a waste of time this would be with most (again, not all) undergrads.

[concordancia]

I wouldn't bother with this for every assignment, but for larger ones, you can require that students write a brief paragraph on the feedback they got last time and what they've done differently.  It's good training for writing letters to editors about reviewer comments.

-+LR

This is excellent advice for upper level majors and early grad students; I just got a much-needed laugh when I imagined what a waste of time this would be with most (again, not all) undergrads.

As they were turning in their 4th or 5th essay for the semester, I asked my students to spend about 15 minutes writing about how their writing process had developed over the course of the semester. Most just said that they were spending more time than ever (including one who still didn't have a rough draft). One said that she thought she was getting better but was still getting the same grades (one of the students who thinks quoting the fact that some people knew about the event ahead of time proves that everybody condoned it). A couple said they were frustrated because they weren't getting feedback (even though I labeled that tab on the CMS "Commented essays" and talked about it in class).

[mathprofdk]

I wouldn't bother with this for every assignment, but for larger ones, you can require that students write a brief paragraph on the feedback they got last time and what they've done differently.  It's good training for writing letters to editors about reviewer comments.

-+LR

This is excellent advice for upper level majors and early grad students; I just got a much-needed laugh when I imagined what a waste of time this would be with most (again, not all) undergrads.

Yeah, while I like the thought, I think it'd be pretty lost on my stats students.  Most are first-year business majors.

I've thought about doing something like this for the exams, though.  I was thinking of something like a document with "what I did", "the mistake I made", and "what I should have done", which might require them to actually look at my comments.  I'm particularly interested in the middle one - I want them to think about the mistake they made and understand what went wrong.

[scampster]

Yeah, while I like the thought, I think it'd be pretty lost on my stats students.  Most are first-year business majors.

I've thought about doing something like this for the exams, though.  I was thinking of something like a document with "what I did", "the mistake I made", and "what I should have done", which might require them to actually look at my comments.  I'm particularly interested in the middle one - I want them to think about the mistake they made and understand what went wrong.

My advisor's exams always consist of questions that are based on what most people messed up on the homework. He always writes up a summary of the general issues people had with the homework (in addition to minor corrections on the homeworks) and you can guarantee the exam questions will come from those summary sheets. So you better read those comments, understand them, and rework through the problems to make sure you get it.

I only mention this because you are in a quantitative area - I am not sure there is a parallel with writing.

[mathprofdk]

My advisor's exams always consist of questions that are based on what most people messed up on the homework. He always writes up a summary of the general issues people had with the homework (in addition to minor corrections on the homeworks) and you can guarantee the exam questions will come from those summary sheets. So you better read those comments, understand them, and rework through the problems to make sure you get it.

Hmm... this sounds like a good idea.  Each week, I could make up a document with some of the most common errors, and then make sure to include some of those questions on the exam.  I like it!

[concordancia]

My advisor's exams always consist of questions that are based on what most people messed up on the homework. He always writes up a summary of the general issues people had with the homework (in addition to minor corrections on the homeworks) and you can guarantee the exam questions will come from those summary sheets. So you better read those comments, understand them, and rework through the problems to make sure you get it.

Hmm... this sounds like a good idea.  Each week, I could make up a document with some of the most common errors, and then make sure to include some of those questions on the exam.  I like it!

Yes, it does work with writing. To be like everyone else, I gave a midterm and a final in my composition class and this was one of the aspects that was included.