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[prof_smartypants]

Suggesting that we (or policymakers) provide more (or equal) opportunities for people to go to college is perfectly reasonable, just as suggesting that we (or policymakers) provide more (or equal) opportunities to be homeowners is reasonable.

But that is not the same as changing rules or encouraging people who have no business in college to go there. Just as we shouldn't have changed the rules or encouraged people who have no business owning a home to buy one.

I haven't heard the president assert that more people should go to college <opens door to numerous quotes here>. What I have heard is a lot of talk about expanding opportunities and leveling the playing field so that those who deserve to go to college can do so.

[spectacle]

"Is college always the answer?"


It really shouldn't be.

College is not for everyone, yet it almost seems like a foolish choice not to be enrolled in one. Employers usually base their judgments based on the applicant's credentials. Having none makes finding jobs, or more specifically careers, really difficult.

We really need to change the system to cater to people whose capacities, learning styles, goals and other traits don't match those of college/university graduates.

So we should change the higher education system to cater to people who aren't cut out for the higher education system?

Based on the structure of your argument, I'd say we're already there!

[voxprincipalis]

"Is college always the answer?"


It really shouldn't be.

College is not for everyone, yet it almost seems like a foolish choice not to be enrolled in one. Employers usually base their judgments based on the applicant's credentials. Having none makes finding jobs, or more specifically careers, really difficult.

We really need to change the system to cater to people whose capacities, learning styles, goals and other traits don't match those of college/university graduates.

Oh, I see, you're a *serious* spammer! Uh, yeah, you don't have a chance here.

VP

[mystictechgal]

"Is college always the answer?"


It really shouldn't be.

College is not for everyone, yet it almost seems like a foolish choice not to be enrolled in one. Employers usually base their judgments based on the applicant's credentials. Having none makes finding jobs, or more specifically careers, really difficult.

We really need to change the system to cater to people whose capacities, learning styles, goals and other traits don't match those of college/university graduates.

Well, they can always buy a degree from one of the companies advertising on your sidebar.  Your "tips" certainly aren't going to help them.  Start with the basics, pay attention, practice, ask questions.  Um, yeah.  If they don't already know they need to do these things they don't belong in college.  And, if they know they need to do these things, do them, and still can't master the material, they don't belong in college--or at least not in that class.  And, if the basics they really need to be starting with are normally learned at the elementary school level, they don't belong in college.  If they can't do rudimentary arithmetic then your "tips" are not going to help them learn how to learn geometry.

[kedves]

"Is college always the answer?"


It really shouldn't be.

College is not for everyone, yet it almost seems like a foolish choice not to be enrolled in one. Employers usually base their judgments based on the applicant's credentials. Having none makes finding jobs, or more specifically careers, really difficult.

We really need to change the system to cater to people whose capacities, learning styles, goals and other traits don't match those of college/university graduates.

Oh, I see, you're a *serious* spammer! Uh, yeah, you don't have a chance here.

VP

He (I think) is serious.  The site is full of advice, including how to talk to people.  I can't trust that, though, because it advises "don't touch yourself" but do "touch the other person," but I have always found the opposite to get better results.

This is a high school student.  From the site:

I’ve also include a list of links I found helpful in my high school career.

By the way, this thread is not about "Is college for everyone?"  It's about the pressure on professors' children to attend and graduate from college (see original post). 

[vardahilwen]

Yeah same here. Most parents expects four years and a degree and to them there is no other option.   

This was the case in my family.  My parents, and one grandparent, all went to college, and my brother and I were raised with the idea that you weren't finished with school until you completed "16th grade."  We never "decided" to go to college (although we decided where to go and what to study).  My brother's four kids all have a bachelor's degree (one of them has two, plus a master's).  I'm completing my 5th degree (it's a Ph.D., and yes, I'm done after this, I'm finally tired of being a student!)  Fortunately my family had the means for us all to attend.

I started my senior year of high school at 16, and was accepted to college before my 17th birthday.  At that point in my life, I wouldn't have been mature enough to make the decision whether or not to go.  I'm grateful to my parents for their attitude, because I probably would have drifted for a long time without going to school.  It really matured me.

[prof22]

Ever since my cousin was a child, he would always talk about all the different things he wanted to do. One time, he talked about how he was going to be doctor and do research.  Another time in his life, he talked about how he was going to work in international affairs. However, he could never really settle on a career choice.  He's a smart kid and approaching his senior year of college.  He's going to end up with a political science degree (and although he sometimes thinks about a law degree, he has no real interest with getting involved in politics).  He's not going to take the LSAT, MCAT, GMAT, or GRE.  He knows a bachelor degree in political science will not get him far, but he doesn't want to take a graduate school entrance exam if he does not know what he wants to do with his life yet.  When I ask him what he plans to do after graduation, his response, "I don't know, work, just find a job."

What happened?!

As the subject line states, "is college always the answer?"  It's only the answer if you have a professional career/goal in mind OR if you have an true passion or interest.  If you can grow professionally or spiritually, it can be an answer for something.  

What does my cousin's bachelor degree in political science really suggest?  In today's world, does a bachelor degree (in letters and sciences or arts and communication) really suggest that you are trainable for a job?  After reading some of the earlier posts, it appears that you can be trained and work a job without a college degree.

[kedves]

What does my cousin's bachelor degree in political science really suggest?  In today's world, does a bachelor degree (in letters and sciences or arts and communication) really suggest that you are trainable for a job?

This is off-topic from the issue of professors' children and the pressure to attend college.  But yes, I believe a college degree does suggest that the person is trainable for a job, and ready-to-go in some jobs.  In the current job market, graduates are taking longer to find that first job--but they are competing against a lot of people at that level.

Political science was my undergraduate major, and I got a lot of those "Are you going to go into politics?" questions, similar to the way English majors probably get, "Are you going to be a writer?"  It was an excellent major for what I spent the next 10 years doing--fund-raising, grant-writing, and coordinating alumni and friends groups.  That career grew out of a student job.  I didn't plan to be an academic, but when I decided to go to grad school, it was a good background for my training in a different discipline.

Many people change careers, some more than once, during their lives.  It's good to have a job in mind after college and know what you need to do to get there, but a lifelong career?  Why is that necessary?

The fact is that the college degree increases lifelong earnings for most people--regardless of whether they have a career in mind or a true passion.  

[prof22]

Kedves is right and provides hope.  I think my cousin's parents truly hope he finds that job that creates a career path.  They tend to be skeptical and a bit worried as they know two people with political science degrees (one guy is a waiter and the other hauls luggage onto airplanes for Northwest).  They are providing some pressure for him to attend graduate school.

I strongly agree with the fact is that the college degree (undergrad or graduate) increases lifelong earnings for most people.   For example, if my cousin goes to law school (because he doesn't have a clue what to do next), I'm sure there would be some benefits (lifelong learning, a possibility for a career turning pt., etc).  But when you consider time and money, where do you draw the line?  Is graduate school always the answer?

[vardahilwen]

Kedves is right and provides hope.  I think my cousin's parents truly hope he finds that job that creates a career path.  They tend to be skeptical and a bit worried as they know two people with political science degrees (one guy is a waiter and the other hauls luggage onto airplanes for Northwest).  They are providing some pressure for him to attend graduate school.

I strongly agree with the fact is that the college degree (undergrad or graduate) increases lifelong earnings for most people.   For example, if my cousin goes to law school (because he doesn't have a clue what to do next), I'm sure there would be some benefits (lifelong learning, a possibility for a career turning pt., etc).  But when you consider time and money, where do you draw the line?  Is graduate school always the answer?

If he goes to law school simply because he doesn't know what to do next, I doubt he'll succeed.  I considered law school, and several law school admissions people told me: only go to law school if you are passionate, committed, and 100% sure it's what you want to do, because the workload is insane and your classmates are really competitive.  If you are not 100% driven to do it, you will not succeed, period.

I know, I know - you could say the same about a lot of graduate programs.  But in this case I think it was sound advice.

[gekko]

This issue parallels in many ways the belief which proliferated in the mid 90s that home ownership was "good for all" and should be promoted at all areas of society, including those with no particular ability to make deposits or any of those pesky "payments", at least of the on-time variety. This philosophy had great results over the last couple years.

We're creating a similar education bubble and driving into debt entire generations of students purchasing a product no more inherently beneficial than an owned rather than rented single residence. Even worse is the fact that the financing made available for such individuals are largely responsible for the absurd tuition rates charged. Like any product, when greater credit is available, potential buyers increase and prices are soon so follow. What other justification could possibly exist for tuition increases trouncing the rate of inflation year after year?

To say that "liberal arts education" can benefit all, is inherently beneficial, should be experienced by all, or is a general benefit if experienced fails to confront the reality of the situation. At what cost? Average debts of 30k? 130k? A billion? At what point do we tell a naive youngster that aspirations "of the mind" are simply not worth the financial difficulties necessary for their pursuit within a formal context? Probably never, since educators are just as averse to the posing of this question as the mortgage broker in the late 90s would have been to discussing the appropriateness of housing for a low income applicant. Just write the ticket and collect your rip.

We need to say the politically incorrect yet honest reality to young people contemplating a college education:

-You will not necessarily benefit in your career from all courses of study and may in fact suffer financially over the course of your life due to indebtedness, opportunity cost, etc.

-Subjects of study with no market value should be entered with realistic skepticism from a practical standpoint and avoided entirely at the graduate level by those without independent wealth including family or spousal support.

-Elite private institutions should be avoided by those who seek to enter fields such as nursing or education in which state licensing is an end goal similarly attainable within lower cost state systems.

These are only a few financial aspects that might make college (or certainly certain types of institutions) less than desirable. There are also a number of personal reason reasons such as other professional opportunities or other interests to pursue. Opportunity to join a ballet company or play a professional sport in your peak years? Probably a better choice on a number of levels.

[regular_joe]

I grew up in a large family and only have one sibling that is attending a university. I cannot imagine my other siblings doing anything other than some sort of vocational training, which is not to say that they are not intelligent enough to. It is just that their interests lie elsewhere.

College is not the answer for everyone, however the idea of lifelong learning may be more applicable here.

One of my siblings, with whom I have heated debates about the value of a college education, partakes in vocational training for hu trade. I think part of hu opinion is derived from the fact that hu didn't have to take the traditional liberal arts course load to earn a position in a trade and make over six figures a year. Not defining success solely on the financial aspect, hu is one of a limited number of people with the specialized knowledge and skill to be considered one of the best in hu field, hu often gets called to different parts of the country to perform hu job because there isn't anyone else available. While I like to brag about my sibling, the point is that hu accomplished this not with a college degree but rather with specialized technical training.

To get back on point, I think there is a need to redefine education with respect to lifelong learning and the changing needs of the workforce. It may be that ccs, technical colleges, and community education programs will play an increasingly larger role in education.

OK, we're all interested---what is the field in which your sibling excels?

[john_proctor]

"Elimination is inevitable"...where did I hear that recently ?

Hall outside the bathroom?

[voxprincipalis]

College is essential. Although it is not mandatory

Huh.

VP

[tinyzombie]

This thread was supposed to die.

<begins banging head against wall again, with bandaids from Vox pre-emptively in place>