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[bread_pirate_naan]

There is nothing wrong with her stating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (AKA Mormon) is against same sex marraige. What she said about the money was not completely accurate, but close enough. She made comments about the character, values and beliefs of Mormons, that go beyond the issue of Proposition 8. We talk of being non judgmental, but she was herself being very judgmental, does that rule only apply to those that agree with her? With my work in the community, as a social worker, I never bring my religion to the table. That would be very unethical of me. On the other side, I can see how she would be upset about the situation. I have no plans to take this beyond this forum. I had one classmate already ask me what I thought via email, but I don't want to answer when forwarding could occur. Today I will probably get more question by classmates. I would hate for her to get wind via other people, if I'm going to say something, I believe its best to be direct with the person.  I'm not sure if talking to her would do any good, for either one of us.

If your professor is misrepresenting values and beliefs that are publicly documented, if I were you, I would say something in class.  But you should take into account, I have a willingness to risk negative confirmation bias (look it up) that may be much greater than many people.

It seems you are not very willing to be public about who you are, and as a social worker you might contemplate the difference between preserving a safe space for your clients and being closeted.  If I were afraid my true thoughts couldn't be expressed in a manner that was not incriminating, I'd be certain the fault of cowardice lay with me.

[jaber123]

If your professor is misrepresenting values and beliefs that are publicly documented, if I were you, I would say something in class.  But you should take into account, I have a willingness to risk negative confirmation bias (look it up) that may be much greater than many people.

It seems you are not very willing to be public about who you are, and as a social worker you might contemplate the difference between preserving a safe space for your clients and being closeted.  If I were afraid my true thoughts couldn't be expressed in a manner that was not incriminating, I'd be certain the fault of cowardice lay with me.

Maybe that's what bugging me, I normally am the type to speak up. People being upset with my beliefs is not unique to Proposition 8 and this is the first time I've really felt like I couldn't say anything. This class I'm referring to not the issue.

Negative confirmation bias- I have studied that and there are times I do that. I will ponder on that thought for a while in this situation. Much to think about, well off to class. Thanks everyone who gave constructive thoughts on both sides of the isuse, please continue. This is as much of an eduction as a classroom.

[jackofallchem]

     One of my first teaching jobs was in a location where I experienced moderate to severe religious discrimination.  I left because I found out that the discrimination was so ingrained that I would not be able to get tenure, no matter what.  As an adult, I was able to understand what was going on and more or less bide my time until I could escape.  My students however, weren't so lucky.
    I had several students who would come to my office in the evenings just to talk about how miserable they felt.  They talked about how the ostracism from the other children, parents, and teachers made them feel worthless in school and how terrible it is to live with the feeling that everyone is staring at you all the time.  I tried to tell them that things aren't like that everywhere, that people aren't that heartless and judgemental all over the US.  I encouraged several of them to look for employment or graduate school elsewhere, where they could escape this existence.  
    It is never fun when a professor decides that you are evil because you don't hold the same beliefs that they do. It would be nice if colleges and universities would be places that encouraged tolerance and the fostered understanding between people with different beliefs and values.  Maybe they will be some day.

[offthemarket]

It is funny that that bigots argue that they are discriminated against because they are bigots.

Keep in mind that just as few people now curse Washington and Jefferson for being slaveholders, perhaps homophobes such as present-day Mormons in the early 21st century similarly be granted a reprieve.

[rroscoe]

quote: "And please, let's not start the "Mormons aren't Christians" bit again.  If you don't know anything about the Church, refrain from posting."

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but if one thinks that Mormons are Christians, then one clearly has a very poor grasp of basic, orthodox Christian beliefs. I've already outlined some very, very major differences on this thread already. The term "Christian" actually means one holds to definite beliefs. As with any other religion, Christianity has a certain set of basic beliefs. Mormons disagree with them to such a degree that they can't be said to be Christians. That is why Mormon converts to Christian churches are re-baptized. Mormons are as much Christians as Messianic Jews are real Jews. If Mormons are Christians, then the term Christian is so broad that it is near meaningless altogether. Really, the term "Christian" actually means something in a descriptive sense.

O.k., back to the topic at hand. My views on SSM and homosexual behavior are probably similar to the OP. But I don't see any religious discrimination here. If ones grades depend on expressing support for SSM or the idea that homosexual behavior is normal and ethical, then it would be religious discrimination. Otherwise, I can see how you might feel uncomfortable. I've been in graduate classes were professors encouraged the class and go out and vote straight Democrat on election day and have berated political and religious views, including some of my own, that run afoul of current leftist orthodoxy. It isn't the most comfortable environment. Unless it is especially relevant to the topic at hand in your class (and why are you spending so much time on this in class in the first place?), I would simply let it go. Not everyone is going to agree with your religious views or like your for them. That's just life. You are probably not going to convince your professor that her lifestyle is wrong. So why waste your time and cause yourself so much stress?

rroscoe

[rroscoe]

Offthemarket,

"Homophobe" is a nonsensical term. It literally means a fear of sameness. A majority of people in the world both in the past and today who belong to the world's major religions see behavior such as adultery, fornication and homosexual sex as unethical. One may disagree with this, even strongly. Nonetheless, their motivation generally isn't some irrational fear of homosexuals as the blanket use of the term "homophobe" implies. It is about set of ethics. If Mormons are "homophobes" for believing that homosexual behavior is unethical, then keeping with nonsensical terms they might as well be labeled as "adulterophobes" and "fornophobes" as well.

rroscoe

[bread_pirate_naan]

Maybe that's what bugging me, I normally am the type to speak up. People being upset with my beliefs is not unique to Proposition 8 and this is the first time I've really felt like I couldn't say anything. This class I'm referring to not the issue.

Negative confirmation bias- I have studied that and there are times I do that. I will ponder on that thought for a while in this situation. Much to think about, well off to class. Thanks everyone who gave constructive thoughts on both sides of the isuse, please continue. This is as much of an eduction as a classroom.

I think you have a real ethical problem, as the actions of the church are blatantly 'colonial' or 'imperialist'.  Forcing beliefs on others through legislation, in a nation where freedom from religion is as much a right as freedom of religion, makes those actions near impossible to defend.  This has nothing to do with using documentation, references, reason and citation--the values and methods of academia to educate your peers and prevent miseducation. 

If you are pressed into silence because you are aware that the actions of your church benefited no one and harmed many by way of deprivation, that is different subject altogether, and one worth exploring in depth.

[grasshopper]

Rroscoe, what you don't know about religion is a lot.

If you want to start a thread about definitions of what does and does not constitute "real" or "true" Christianity, by all means, go ahead. But enough hijacking already.

[temporaryname]

It is funny that that bigots argue that they are discriminated against because they are bigots.

Keep in mind that just as few people now curse Washington and Jefferson for being slaveholders, perhaps homophobes such as present-day Mormons in the early 21st century similarly be granted a reprieve.

I find it interesting that many of the comments on this thread assume that because someone is a Mormon, then they automatically do/believe X. This, of course, is a common thing for those outside of a particular group to do--you know, the this group I am talking about all acts in this particular way sort of thing. However, life isn't that simple: In part due to the nature of one of my research focuses I regularly interact with more Mormons than most probably do, and I know a number of believing Mormons who voted against Prop 8 (and a number who would have if they lived in California).

Now, the OP voted for Prop 8 (or would have), it seems from the original post, and I'm pretty sure that most Mormons voted/would have voted similarly. But the move from most to all bugs me, and I just wanted to voice a mild objection to it.

Okay, now back to the fighting about whether Mormons are Christian and so on.

[jackofallchem]

quote:


O.k., back to the topic at hand. My views on SSM and homosexual behavior are probably similar to the OP. But I don't see any religious discrimination here. If ones grades depend on expressing support for SSM or the idea that homosexual behavior is normal and ethical, then it would be religious discrimination. Otherwise, I can see how you might feel uncomfortable. I've been in graduate classes were professors encouraged the class and go out and vote straight Democrat on election day and have berated political and religious views, including some of my own, that run afoul of current leftist orthodoxy. It isn't the most comfortable environment. Unless it is especially relevant to the topic at hand in your class (and why are you spending so much time on this in class in the first place?), I would simply let it go. Not everyone is going to agree with your religious views or like your for them. That's just life. You are probably not going to convince your professor that her lifestyle is wrong. So why waste your time and cause yourself so much stress?


rroscoe

rroscoe,
    Maybe you should give this advice to anyone thinking of suing because of a hostile work environment.  If the dirty jokes and inappropriate suggestions don't affect your pay or your job security, you should just let it go.

[offthemarket]

Corrections to rroscoe:

Being gay is not a "lifestyle."  It's not a choice.  Ask any child or teenager who's figuring out that they're gay and often wishing they weren't.

The term 'homophobia' is a term in the English language that isn't directly translated from the root words.  Look it up in the dictionary.

[quietly]

It is funny that that bigots argue that they are discriminated against because they are bigots.

This does seem to be the general argument that the anti-gay marriage camp makes.  It goes: Quit calling us bigots.  You're the ones preaching tolerance, so why can't you hypocrites be tolerant of my religiously-motivated desire to force my obviously superior beliefs on other people?  Waah! I'm a victim of bigotry!

Of course, this is laughable nonsense.

However, I haven't quite heard this argument from the OP.  S/he did say "I will take responsibility for any action I took regarding Proposition 8" but never said whether s/he took any.  We're generally assuming s/he was for it and that does seem reasonable, but we can't assume s/he advocated for it.  

I think it's interesting that the OP's main concern seems to be: "A person in a position of authority over me used her power inappropriately to say she thinks badly of a group to which I belong, and it makes me feel curiously angry and helpless."

Which I would assume are exactly the emotions the professor was expressing, save that the inappropriately-used authority was the vastly more serious blunt force of proposition law.  So, like Grasshopper said, I think this feeling is an outstanding opportunity for personal growth.

At the same time, I'm not sure that's where the OP is. What's this stuff about "she didn't say it was just her opinion"? Did her monologue contain factually incorrect information?  

[jonesey]

Being gay is not a "lifestyle."  It's not a choice.  Ask any child or teenager who's figuring out that they're gay and often wishing they weren't.

To be fair, the jury (and the scientific community) is still out on this. AFAIK, there isn't any "proof" that being gay is genetic. 

Personally, I could care less, but for me the issue is about human rights, not biology. 

I think you have a real ethical problem, as the actions of the church are blatantly 'colonial' or 'imperialist'.  Forcing beliefs on others through legislation, in a nation where freedom from religion is as much a right as freedom of religion, makes those actions near impossible to defend. 

There's nothing colonial or imperialist about the LDS Church.  It's never started a war over their belief system, or done any forced conversions like the Catholic Church (and others) ever in its history.

They didn't "force" any legislation: they sponsored it, like many other religious groups have done all around the world.  The majority of Californian's voted for it.  That's called "democracy" not "imperialism."  Just because the vote didn't go the way you (or I) would have liked, doesn't mean the LDS Church forced the entire state of California to confrom to its beliefs.  The unfortunate fact is that the majority of this country is against gay marriage (or at least the majority that actually votes).   

[kedves]

OP, based on what you've said, I would probably let it go with a lesson learned that every political act affects other people in very personal ways.  Some professors use personal material in the classroom and some don't.  If you have a comment about teaching style or methods, the student evaluation is a good place for that (if your program uses them). 

Many academics are hostile to religious belief--as they are to political views they don't share and to cultural traditions that aren't their own--but the last two characteristics are hardly rare in the non-academic world, either.   I challenge students when they argue opinions not based in fact, and my research focuses on a controversial issue, but in the rest of daily life, I pick my battles.  This may be one of those times for you; only you know if it is (and what your sense is of the correspondence between what she said and how you heard it, e.g., if she what she said was demeaning to you or if you interpret your church's political activism differently than she does).

[offthemarket]

To be fair, the jury (and the scientific community) is still out on this. AFAIK, there isn't any "proof" that being gay is genetic. 
Personally, I could care less, but for me the issue is about human rights, not biology. 

I didn't say it was genetic.  I said it wasn't a choice.  There are many phenotypes which are the product of biology that aren't genetic in any direct or obvious terms.  While there isn't proof, the p-level is remarkably low on 'choice' as a null hypothesis.

I think the best way to figure out if being gay is a choice is to ask people about their sexual orientation and whether they chose it.  I didn't choose to be straight, I just am.  Gay people will report the same about their orientation.