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[nordicexpat]

Having seen yet another Chronicle article/blog in which an American thinktanker extolls the virtues of Bologna, I was wondering what the impressions of people who have first-hand experience with the "reform" think about it.  I teach in Europe (and have taught in the US), and based upon my own experiences, I see very little reason to believe that Europe is going to be catching up to the US (let alone surpass) any time soon because of Bologna (the US might sink, but I don't see Europe rising).  Standards across Europe are hardly uniform ( I won't name countries, but based upon exchange students I get, it appears that in some countries students have never written a single paper), the notion that research universities suddenly became more student-centered is a farce, a single digit percentage of students have completed their degrees in three years, and outside of the UK, a learning objective is something like "students will learn the history of aesthetic theory."  Am I just being cynical?  Has Bologna improved the quality of education at anyone's institution? 

[bacardiandlime]

what?

[qrypt]

YOU KEEP YOUR DIRTY EUROCRAT FINGERS OFF OF MY UNIVERSITY!  YOU'LL GET TWO-YEAR MASTERS DEGREES IN BRITAIN OVER MY COLD DEAD BODY!!  WE LEARN TWICE AS FAST HERE!  OR, WE TEACH TWICE AS FAST HERE!  AND WE'VE BEEN DOING IT THIS WAY FOR CENTURIES!  YOU JUST WANT TO CONTROL WHAT I TEACH!  OR, YOU JUST WANT TO RAISE MY TAXES TO DANISH LEVELS! etc etc

[testingthewaters]

B&L, this is actually a relevant question for those of us at universities in Europe, but could have been explained a bit rather than just jumping into a rant.

The Bologna Treaty is an attempt at standardization of the myriad of higher education systems in Europe, which includes a transition to a 3 year bachelors + 2-year masters system. The idea is that, theoretically, one could do a bachelors in Germany, then a masters in the UK (or France, or Spain, or whatever).

In practice, the kind of mobility that is indicated as a goal happens very little, or at least has happened very little so far. The standardization is, thus far, mostly a paper exercise in which each country has slightly revamped their own system to fit the mold (again, on paper).

I do think that, with time, this could actually work. I have actually seen improvements in some areas: the system is far from perfect, but it does make it easier for ambitious students to move around within Europe for a semester or a year without delaying graduation. The European Credit (ECTS) system has aided that enormously.

I think the major gain will be in the future, when recent graduates start moving around Europe and diplomas are recognized across borders. This does actually happen quite a bit, and while it is far from perfect, the standardization of terms gives people at least some indication of the level of education a person has had.

OP, a link to the "Chronicle article/blog" to which you refer would help enormously.

Or, on preview, what qrypt said.

[nordicexpat]

Hi,
Ok, I apologize for the rant and admit that i should have provided a link and more explanation, but I thought this forum would be familiar with Bologna process (even though Europe is only a small area where people are working overseas). Here is the appropriate link:

http://chronicle.com/daily/2009/04/15430n.htm

I agree that the Bologna Process has made exchange programs easier, but i don't see how it has standardized the curriculum, other than instituting the European Credit system (which hasn't made out students graduate any faster: on the contrary, many are taking even longer).   And I am not necessarily against the principle of reform (I actually think Europe is in tremendous need of reform: it just isn't happening).  I just see such a distance between rhetoric and reality that is hard to believe how someone could uncritically accept the claims of European government and/or university officials and not bother actually looking at the ways policies actually function (or not, as the case may be) before extolling their virtues. 

   

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Education is best served by having as varied a selection of educational institutions available to students as possible. Standardization (and the concomitant homogenization) will not be a good thing for the Europeans. - DvF

[helpful]

Is grypt saying that you can get a Masters degree in the UK in 1 year? Please clarify.

[qrypt]

Is grypt saying that you can get a Masters degree in the UK in 1 year? Please clarify.

Yes.  You got a problem with that??

(I hope the intent of my posts is clear -- though I do agree with DvF about the basic stupidity of standardization)

[dellaroux]

I think the French are sort of distracted elsewhere at the moment, if you take my meaning.

I haven't heard of anyone taking it seriously, although I suppose it could something more to protest if someone came up with a reason to do so.

I'm not familiar enough with the Bologna process to know, but an ongoing discussion has been carried out on the "14 days/Paris" thread about the differentiation between the "grandes ecoles" and the "universites" (sorry, hurrying, no accents) which makes the first question there one of getting both on board...which doesn't strike me as a simple one.

In addition, with Sarko playing the phillistine card--and always seeming to me, anyway, to be just on the verge of doing the "France (where <<l'etat>> = <<moi>>) against the rest of the world" thing where he'd be better advised to be more collegial--I can't see him putting much energy into it, either (maybe I'm wrong, though.)

It might come to the attention of those in the US if it affected student study years abroad, or things like that, but the puddle really is an insulating border that has dampened a lot of the feedback here.

I'd like to thank you for raising the question, though, it is an interesting one, and worth further consideration.

[expatinuk]

Is grypt saying that you can get a Masters degree in the UK in 1 year? Please clarify.

Yes, one CAN get a taught Master's in one year in the UK. That's 12 months... not two semesters. It's also pretty dependent on the student spending about 40 hours a week in study. My students actually usually take 18 months instead of 12. They get totally burned out with the intense level of study in the first two semesters and can't complete their dissertation (in the UK one does a dissertation at M level and a Thesis at Ph.D. level) in the summer. Most of my students end up taking a lot of time off in the summer and finishing in January. That's NOT to say that it can't be done in 12 months. But in 11 years of running an MA program I've only had one student complete that quickly.

[polly_mer]

I recently heard a few people speak about what they were doing at their universities to address the Bologna Process.  The impression that I had upon leaving the talks was that the differences in educational techniques were so huge that anyone proposing a standardization was clueless about the realities of how the classroom parts worked and what level of competency was expected upon completion of X credits.

[sandgrounder]

THe ECTS system is really good compared with the hell it used to be to get any study abroad recognised before that existed and as a study abroad coordinator I love anything that makes my life easier... And I think in some countries, people have really thought hard about designing their new BA degrees. I've seen some excellent examples recently in Germany for example. I pity the students who are the guinea pigs though as there's also many examples of universities trying to cram far too much into their BA degrees and I think it'll take time to bed down.

But I think the more enthusiastic proponents who are now trying to think about common curricula need to be stopped. I hope though the UK does move to two year MA degrees at some point - many of the intrnational students I teach need at least a semester to get the hang of things and with our system it's high stakes from day 1.

[sciencephd]

Having seen yet another Chronicle article/blog in which an American thinktanker extolls the virtues of Bologna, I was wondering what the impressions of people who have first-hand experience with the "reform" think about it. 

The virtues of Bologna are hard to deny.  However, IMO salami fills these needs better and is more cost-effective.

Has Bologna improved the quality of education at anyone's institution? 

We have moved with the times and instead used soft cheeses, and to good effect. 

[testingthewaters]

Education is best served by having as varied a selection of educational institutions available to students as possible.

Yes, but the thing is, a varied selection was never available to students in Europe. Yes, across Europe there was (and still is) a wide variety. Each European country had its own system. If you lived in that country, you attended that country's system. Moving from one country (thus system) to another, even at the start of university education, was somewhere between difficult and impossible. Thus, across Europe there was variety, but for the individual, not so much. In the long run, Bologna may help.

What I'm seeing now is that, through exchanges, students have access to more variety than before, because they can study in various countries' systems. These individual systems haven't been standardized (and full standardization is pretty much always a bad idea, with the exeption of maybe weights and measures- that's pretty handy), but they have been moved close enough together that some movement between systems is possible. I think this is a good thing.

[helpful]

Is grypt saying that you can get a Masters degree in the UK in 1 year? Please clarify.

Yes, one CAN get a taught Master's in one year in the UK. That's 12 months... not two semesters. It's also pretty dependent on the student spending about 40 hours a week in study. My students actually usually take 18 months instead of 12. They get totally burned out with the intense level of study in the first two semesters and can't complete their dissertation (in the UK one does a dissertation at M level and a Thesis at Ph.D. level) in the summer. Most of my students end up taking a lot of time off in the summer and finishing in January. That's NOT to say that it can't be done in 12 months. But in 11 years of running an MA program I've only had one student complete that quickly.

OK, I must admit I am confused. In the first sentence you talk about a 'taught' MA and then later on you talk about them completing a dissertation. So isn't the MA research based and not 'taught'? Or is a dissertation just like a paper for a course?