|
prytania3
|
 |
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2009, 08:45:26 AM » |
|
Sometimes the candidate is not better at all; rather, the chosen one is just someone everyone in the department can live with--in other words, the chosen one was actually everyone's second or third choice.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Clowns, I tell you. Clowns.
|
|
|
bacardiandlime
Ninja
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 3,257
That makes me more gangster than you
|
|
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2009, 08:47:33 AM » |
|
Sometimes the candidate is not better at all; rather, the chosen one is just someone everyone in the department can live with--in other words, the chosen one was actually everyone's second or third choice.
Ah, yes, the beautiful creature called 'compromise'. Also known as a camel, being a horse designed by a committee. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
YOU ARE NASTY
Go jump in lake!
|
|
|
|
svenc
|
|
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2009, 08:50:45 AM » |
|
Sometimes the candidate is not better at all; rather, the chosen one is just someone everyone in the department can live with--in other words, the chosen one was actually everyone's second or third choice.
Which makes that candidate better, at least for that one department - which is all that matters for the hiring decision. But I certainly agree with the point that this reflects no universal, objective standard of "better." Ah, yes, the beautiful creature called 'compromise'. Also known as a camel, being a horse designed by a committee.
Why do people keep picking on camels around here? I would gladly be the academic counterpart of the camel. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 08:51:36 AM by svenc »
|
Logged
|
In foris veritas.
|
|
|
frolickingturtle
Junior member
Posts: 84
|
|
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2009, 12:16:09 AM » |
|
You're allowed to ask, you know. A respectful email or phone call to the search chair that asks for some feedback is usually considered just fine. Something along the lines of "Thank you for the opportunity to interview, it was great experience. I have applied to positions at several other institutions, and was wondering if you'd have any feedback for me...blah blah blah." You might get a cursory -"you were great, it's not you it's us...", or you might get some really valuable feedback.
It often is not considered "just fine," and if you send such an email (or, heaven forbid, call) you will often not get any response at all because they may not be legally able to tell you anything, even if they wanted to, which they probably don't. They will not do anything that their administration believes will lead to a lawsuit. There are many other discussions about this topic on the fora, so I'm sure if you are considering doing this you can find and read up on them. VP Hmmm... Interesting. This is counter to advice I've received from my advisors and senior colleagues, who indicated it was a good strategy and that they have given such info to candidates in the past who have asked. Perhaps it varies by field or region, or particular institution's policy... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
dellaroux
|
|
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2009, 12:28:07 AM » |
|
Why do people keep picking on camels around here? I would gladly be the academic counterpart of the camel. Svenc, the academic camel.... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Pax in terra choreagibus
Ballo non bello parare
How am I?: There are four levels: Alive, Alert, Awake & Functioning. Right now, I'm standing upright & moving forward.
We are gifted superfluously--the cosmos is more generous than we can ask or imagine.
|
|
|
|
sibyl
|
|
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2009, 11:06:00 AM » |
|
You're allowed to ask, you know. A respectful email or phone call to the search chair that asks for some feedback is usually considered just fine. Something along the lines of "Thank you for the opportunity to interview, it was great experience. I have applied to positions at several other institutions, and was wondering if you'd have any feedback for me...blah blah blah." You might get a cursory -"you were great, it's not you it's us...", or you might get some really valuable feedback.
It often is not considered "just fine," and if you send such an email (or, heaven forbid, call) you will often not get any response at all because they may not be legally able to tell you anything, even if they wanted to, which they probably don't. They will not do anything that their administration believes will lead to a lawsuit. There are many other discussions about this topic on the fora, so I'm sure if you are considering doing this you can find and read up on them. VP Hmmm... Interesting. This is counter to advice I've received from my advisors and senior colleagues, who indicated it was a good strategy and that they have given such info to candidates in the past who have asked. Perhaps it varies by field or region, or particular institution's policy... It's not problematic to ask. (What are they going to do, not hire you some more?) But you should not expect a useful answer, because of the constraints that VP mentions, in addition to simple politeness. When you do get a useful answer, treat it as a bonus. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not pretend to set people right, but I do see that they are often wrong." -- Jane Austen, Mansfield Park
|
|
|
|
busyslinky
|
|
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2009, 11:28:21 AM » |
|
What are they going to do, not hire you some more? Possibly, yes. Positions do open up again at the same institution. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Such a wonderful toy!
|
|
|
|
carebearstare
|
|
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2009, 02:54:09 PM » |
|
What are they going to do, not hire you some more? Possibly, yes. Positions do open up again at the same institution. I'm not sure how the answer could be useful, actually. Unless someone completely bombed the job talk or didn't have some necessary credential (degree in the right area, Ph.D. in hand, etc.), the calculus is so intricate that there could be a thousand reasons. Perhaps the faculty was completely divided. Perhaps the Dean had a favorite and a heavy say in the matter. Perhaps fewer people showed up to your talk and so not as many people could evaluate you well. Not only can these intricacies not really be said, but moreover even the search chair might not have a good grasp of why a department of individuals decided against you. What s/he says might not be what the bulk of faculty really thought. It seems like self-torture to ask, besides the fact that there's a very good chance it could really offend or put out whomever you are asking. Sometimes our advisers give us bad advice, and I would consider that bad advice. Common sense seems to dictate here: don't pour salt into the wound. It's like asking someone you went on one date with what s/he didn't like about you. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:55:40 PM by the_scene »
|
Logged
|
Well, some posters were being naughty here.
|
|
|
|
ruralguy
|
|
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2009, 05:58:55 PM » |
|
I don't think an SC chair would tell you anything useful, OP.
Though, I suppose you could ask.
Having been on some SC's but also in observing the results of others I can say its pretty common to have some sort of compromise. Its also somewhat common (though less so than the above) for bullies to get their way and hire chronies who clearly were worse candidates.
Or there can be a clear star who is offered the job and accepts.
Who knows? In summary, there may very well have been a reason for not being hired, and it could have been a good one, or it could have been a slimebag reason. If I had to guess, as others have, it would be some combo of ABD and someone else maybe seeming a bit better.
But maybe not.
And..Good SC's "flirt" with all the candidates :-) . We all speak in terms of how the candidate would fit into the current structure. This is because the committee only gets that one shot to make an impression on the candidate, and we always want that to be positive, even if we decided later that the candidate sucked.
We're sorry if we're leading you on, but the only other option is to
act like robots, and then we'd turn off the people who like us (and who we really need to impress!).
Good luck, OP!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
msparticularity
|
|
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2009, 11:33:40 PM » |
|
You're allowed to ask, you know. A respectful email or phone call to the search chair that asks for some feedback is usually considered just fine. Something along the lines of "Thank you for the opportunity to interview, it was great experience. I have applied to positions at several other institutions, and was wondering if you'd have any feedback for me...blah blah blah." You might get a cursory -"you were great, it's not you it's us...", or you might get some really valuable feedback.
It often is not considered "just fine," and if you send such an email (or, heaven forbid, call) you will often not get any response at all because they may not be legally able to tell you anything, even if they wanted to, which they probably don't. They will not do anything that their administration believes will lead to a lawsuit. There are many other discussions about this topic on the fora, so I'm sure if you are considering doing this you can find and read up on them. VP Hmmm... Interesting. This is counter to advice I've received from my advisors and senior colleagues, who indicated it was a good strategy and that they have given such info to candidates in the past who have asked. Perhaps it varies by field or region, or particular institution's policy... It's not problematic to ask. (What are they going to do, not hire you some more?) But you should not expect a useful answer, because of the constraints that VP mentions, in addition to simple politeness. When you do get a useful answer, treat it as a bonus. I think the kind of "coaching" Frolickingturtle's advisor's and senior colleagues refer to is largely a thing of the past. It certainly used to exist, because I've heard about it from my dad's friends and from him. It used to be that the first one or two job searches were a kind of an extension of the grad program, and senior faculty provided helpful hints to assist job-seekers. However, thanks to the lawsuit-averse HR policies and the pressures of job markets in more recent times, this is really not happening in most fields these days. YMMV, of course. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey
"Be particular." Jill Conner Browne
|
|
|
|
svenc
|
|
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2009, 12:41:13 AM » |
|
Why do people keep picking on camels around here? I would gladly be the academic counterpart of the camel. Svenc, the academic camel.... Thanks Dellaroux, I now have a back-up tag line for when I get sick of my current one! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
In foris veritas.
|
|
|
|
janedoh
|
|
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2009, 09:06:42 AM » |
|
I took 2 years to find a TT job in the physical sciences (I started my new job in July 2008, so this is in the last 2 years). In my first year on the market, I got 2 interviews and no offers. I thanked both SC chairs where I interviewed and expressed regrets that it didn't work out for me (via email). I also asked if they could offer advice on how I could improve as a candidate to help me in future searches. Both SCs told me to call them, so I did.
From 1 SC, I found out that several people in the department thought I didn't do enough (disregarding my publication record) because I focused on one small research story in my job talk. This was great information--I still used one research story the next year, but broadened it out to include some additional relevant data.
From the other SC, it was told it was mostly about fit. But I also found out that one of my references was considered polarizing by the committee (I could guess which one), so I switched to someone else the next year. AND the SC told me that something I said in passing in response to a question was deemed incredibly important by some on the committee (like it became a point of contention when I was discussed), which further reminded me not to make jokes, not to make passing remarks that might get misinterpreted, and to be VERY careful in the Q&A.
The next year, I got 8 interviews and 3 offers (with one more potentially pending until I withdrew--we had started the dance, though). I don't know if the advice from the SCs helped, or if the fates aligned for me, or if just having a years' experience made me a better candidate (certainly my research and teaching statements were more refined after an extra year), but it certainly didn't hurt me to ask SCs for "any advice that might help me as I continue my search". YMMV, depending on your field.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 09:07:45 AM by janedoh »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ruralguy
|
|
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2009, 05:38:51 PM » |
|
"janedoh" shows an excellent counter-example.
Just because a lot of SC's don't reveal much doesn't mean that SOME won't reveal critical information.
So, OP, though I stand by my original post, if you are itching to call, you might as well.
I definitely think its unlikely to hurt, most likely won't do much, but COULD help.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
