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Author Topic: advising saudi student on divorce?  (Read 4902 times)
odysseus
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 01:07:00 AM »

You could get assistance from your local Immams and Ulema if any. Really Ulema are the best to help you as they are qualified Islamic jurists. However, be advised that divorce for a woman is not the same for a man regardless of the madhab. It could carry some very serious consequences for her, her family, for you as well.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 01:38:01 AM »

As I understand the issue (from friends and colleagues--not through personal experience) the custody is the likeliest issue to be very difficult once she returns to Saudi Arabia. A civil divorce obtained in another country would apparently have to be registered with the appropriate authorities there upon her return, and the divorce portion is likely to be recognized--although her husband could certainly contest it and a hearing might be held. However, property and especially child custody settlements made in a civil court in another country would NOT be binding, and would almost certainly be reviewed and changed.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2009, 02:00:18 AM »

Just an additional note--the biggest issue may be whether this woman has a male "guarantor"--her father, if alive, or her eldest brother--who is supportive of her divorce. If she doesn't, it would be very, very dangerous for her to return to Saudi Arabia at all. Also, I just double-checked, and the norm would be for her to have custody of children until the age of 7-9, and then they would go to the father. Last, even if she stays here and gets a US divorce with full custody, kidnappings of children by Saudi fathers (to "save" them from life in the US) are quite common, and once the children reach Saudi Arabia nothing can be done.

I'm afraid this may be a very messy situation, with no real possibility of a good outcome.
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"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey

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kedves
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2009, 09:43:22 AM »

You could get assistance from your local Immams and Ulema if any. Really Ulema are the best to help you as they are qualified Islamic jurists. However, be advised that divorce for a woman is not the same for a man regardless of the madhab. It could carry some very serious consequences for her, her family, for you as well.

Are you saying that if I have a female Saudi student whose husband beats her, and I walk with her to the international students office, and she later gets a divorce, I am going to face very serious consequences?  From whom?
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dellaroux
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2009, 10:34:28 AM »

A) I can't speak to this from the perspective of the legal and religiously jurisprudential sides (and there are organizations that can, see below), but as a survivor of an abusive marriage, and later, a shelter volunteer :

1) I hope he doesn't know where she is staying, and that all efforts have been made to protect her and her child(ren) as they travel to and from their work/school/homesites. If he knows even one of her classes, or where the children go for daycare, and decides to enact the protective/possessive male dominance thing he could try to follow them there.

I would guess they know to be careful but one of the stresses is the continual care one must take and the fact that the stress from that care can cause slip-ups. So continued reinforcement for how important and how valuable it is to stay alert would be a message I'd send often when in touch with the person.

2) Good that you are assisting and seeking appropriate help, but do also be careful on your own. It's not your trouble directly, but by taking her part, you could be seen as coming between the husband and his property/wife/children, and you should be taking your own precautions, as well...no dark parking lots alone, that kind of thing. (Former spouse tried to "shadow me" to where I was staying once to "get in and tell those people what he thought of their helping me;" the shelter location was kept secret to avoid reprisals/kidnapping attempts; this was an especial concern where a "macho" culture existed among males in one particular population that was highly present at the shelter due to its location in the town.)

3) Abused individuals sometimes re-think their situations, or test out their own will to leave by returning in the hope/belief/wish that things might get better. This should not be seen as a relapse or taken with any degree of shock, because it's a part of the reality-testing that the individual may have to go through to strengthen their own resolve to leave.

Instead, stay in contact, don't feel "betrayed," or like your work has been for nothing; but stay in communication and help with the reality-testing to whatever degree you can...and keep referring the person to a counselor, who can likewise help with this.

4) Be very careful, perhaps especially if you're male, not to give any reason (even a handshake) for someone to think that there is an emotional connection between you and the student.

Obviously enough, for the usual reasons, but also because abusive partners have usually lost much of their perspective on "who" they are and "who" their spouse/partner is and the messy/nonexistent boundary definitions are what make the violence (sometimes) unpredictable and frightening and sometimes only too predictable.

The possibility of increased violence towards the target spouse/partner as well as any perceived rivals once the spouse makes their intentions to leave clear is not negligible.

5) Be helpful but don't "hover," since people leaving abusive situations often take some time to do so, need many different kinds of help, and may in fact only be in close contact for a short period of time.

That doesn't mean that what you do, even in a brief or seemingly disconnected way, isn't valuable. I can still recall the 30 or more different people who took me seriously, helped me find help, let me stay with them briefly, or funded a retreat/lawyer's visit/whatever, at their own discretion, over the 3 years it took me to realize what I was dealing with and how I wanted to resolve it.

It sounds like your student might not have the leisure of as much time to resolve/move on things, and with childcare issues, it's very much harder.

6)  Sometimes there are things--a savings-account book, for example--for which one must risk a brief return, so as not to tip one's hand or lose access to the object. Going with a female friend when the abuser is known to be away is one way to do that.

B) But I'd also be seeking out local resources for domestic violence (there's are national centers,

    http://www.ndvh.org/

and

   http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_help_treatment_prevention.htm

For women from Islamic families, there is this site:

   http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_dv.htm

and a recent interview with this individual:

   http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/09/24/cnnheroes.robina.niaz/index.html

and the site named in the article is at:

   http://turningpoint-ny.org/

There are probably others in your local area.

C) I'd, gut-level, be seeing if she could get some kind of an extension of her work here, somehow...and with their visa situation, perhaps he would be sent back, which might ease things in general...but perhaps not, I don't know well enough to know.
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ideagirl
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2009, 05:51:01 PM »

Just an additional note--the biggest issue may be whether this woman has a male "guarantor"--her father, if alive, or her eldest brother--who is supportive of her divorce. If she doesn't, it would be very, very dangerous for her to return to Saudi Arabia at all. Also, I just double-checked, and the norm would be for her to have custody of children until the age of 7-9, and then they would go to the father. Last, even if she stays here and gets a US divorce with full custody, kidnappings of children by Saudi fathers (to "save" them from life in the US) are quite common, and once the children reach Saudi Arabia nothing can be done.

That's what I was talking about when I said it might be a good idea to check with an immigration attorney to see about the possibility of asylum under these circumstances, if she wants to consider that.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2009, 06:17:00 PM »

Just an additional note--the biggest issue may be whether this woman has a male "guarantor"--her father, if alive, or her eldest brother--who is supportive of her divorce. If she doesn't, it would be very, very dangerous for her to return to Saudi Arabia at all. Also, I just double-checked, and the norm would be for her to have custody of children until the age of 7-9, and then they would go to the father. Last, even if she stays here and gets a US divorce with full custody, kidnappings of children by Saudi fathers (to "save" them from life in the US) are quite common, and once the children reach Saudi Arabia nothing can be done.

That's what I was talking about when I said it might be a good idea to check with an immigration attorney to see about the possibility of asylum under these circumstances, if she wants to consider that.

Yup - I think the true situation for women in Saudi Arabia is very far from what most Americans can imagine.
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"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey

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festivus
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2009, 10:27:10 PM »

OP here.  Thanks to all who have posted for your thoughtful replies.  I did call the international students office, which was quite knowledgeable and willing to put my student in touch with counseling.  However, my student, who is the recipient of a Saudi government scholarship, has been advised by the Saudi embassy not to talk with anyone else about this matter and not to get police involved.  They have also put her scholarship on "hold" until this matter is resolved.  (I am not sure what that will mean for her continued studies, although she is near the end of her degree.)  In the meantime, her husband has taken the child and she hopes to regain custody.  Her father and older brother are both supportive of the divorce.   Her father has come to the U.S. to be with her (one condition of the Saudi government scholarship is that a woman cannot live without a male family member.)   

She is definitely not interested in staying in the U.S. and wishes to return to Saudi Arabia.  While many posters offered good suggestions of getting in touch with an immigration or international law expert, she seems at this moment, to be following the dictates of the embassy, with the hope of regaining custody and keeping her scholarship.  A very complex situation for this young woman. 
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dellaroux
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 09:46:29 AM »

I am wondering if her husband has somehow gotten to the embassy first. Their structures are (it would seem to me) more likely to function in his favor than in hers and she may need judiciously to consider the possibility of applying for asylum here if they start issuing ultimata that are not in her best (safety) interests.

I would guess that the resources I listed above might have had some experience with such groups as well. Was she/were you able to find anything out from them?
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scampster
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 10:14:35 AM »

This thread makes me sad and angry.
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chicklet
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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2009, 03:43:17 PM »

Same, especially knowing that the husband now has custody of the child.
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festivus
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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2009, 03:49:57 PM »

Yes, it's a sad and disturbing situation indeed.  I worry about the outcome for this  very bright and inquisitive student, socially, educationally, safety wise. 
I am wondering if her husband has somehow gotten to the embassy first. Their structures are (it would seem to me) more likely to function in his favor than in hers and she may need judiciously to consider the possibility of applying for asylum here if they start issuing ultimata that are not in her best (safety) interests.

I would guess that the resources I listed above might have had some experience with such groups as well. Was she/were you able to find anything out from them?

You're right, dellaroux, her husband called the embassy immediately when she left the house, notifying them that she was a female Saudi student, receiving a scholarship, and no longer living with a male family member.  Unbelievable!  I have shared a number of resources with her and she feels that, given her scholarship and concern about custody of her child, her best bet is to work with the embassy (with her father, who is now in the U.S. with her).  At this point, I think she's made her decision.
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kedves
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2009, 03:51:48 PM »

Thank you for sharing the rest of the story.  I wish her the best and am glad you did what you could.
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dellaroux
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2009, 03:59:12 PM »

I'm very sorry, also, but no, it's not unbelievable once you've lived through this kind of thing.

She really needs the support of someone within her own religious community that has experience with both US and Islamic law and practices.

Is there anyone like that in the local area, or that she can contact anonymously (i.e., not on a cell phone and not on a computer known to him, since those can be and often are traced? Land lines in offisite areas are safest)

She's in more danger if she is perceived as compliant after leaving once, since to an abuser that vindicates them and can lead to more abuse.

And whether or not she can get custody of the children, as in the airplane oxygen mask scenario, she can only help them if she helps herself first. I would focus on her needs for now.
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Pax in terra choreagibus
Ballo non bello parare

How am I?: There are four levels: Alive, Alert, Awake & Functioning. Right now, I'm standing upright & moving forward.

We are gifted superfluously--the cosmos is more generous than we can ask or imagine.
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