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[verafrance]

The problem is that you, and verafrance, don't distinguish :

1) things that fail because the teachers are bad.
2) things that fail because they have no time, no budget, no decent means to do their work correctly.

Many of the issues you're talking about are consequences of poor working conditions, and not teacher's incompetence.

You can't, absolutely can't, compare french budgets, student/ faculty ratios, teaching loads, salaries, research budgets, grants, overall campus qualities... with their US counterparts. Only the ENS-Ulm and the Ecole Polytechnique have capacities on par with the best US institutions. The public universities work with incredibly low budgets. Actually, in many modern countries, such places would never be qualified as "universities".

You can't blame the teachers for this. It's like blaming a somalian for being thin. 

No, no, I would say that I am addressing mostly the problems with incompetency and lack of ethics, so I would add one more category:

1) things that fail because the teachers are bad (read incompetent)
2) things that fail because teachers are unethical
3) things that fail because they have no time, no budget, no decent means to do their work correctly.

I think you are much more knowledgeable than other posters about how French universities are plagued by budget problems, so your contribution is most important for a fuller understanding of the French university system, especially concerning #3.

[dellaroux]

Only the ENS-Ulm and the Ecole Polytechnique have capacities on par with the best US institutions. The public universities work with incredibly low budgets. Actually, in many modern countries, such places would never be qualified as "universities".

I'm curious about this.

Clearly you're not concerned about all the universities--i.e., the private ones, like the Sorbonne or the College-de-France--but U. de Bologne? Strasbourg?

And is there a monetary divide, only, or one of oversight and philosophy of education as well?

By distinguishing between public vs. private universities, which I wasn't actually considering as the splitting point, the issues of classism are raised in a different way.

And in that sense, it's true, there are very strong public US schools, at one of which (a state university in the midwest) I did my B.A.

But I hadn't realized at first that your concern was only for public schools. I thought you were discussing French educators' attitudes more generally.

[frenchdoctor]

"Private universities" don't exist in France. By law, the State has monopoly on academic research and university degrees. Only public universities have the right to stamp official degrees, like the licences or doctorates.

Private HE institutions (and not "universities") exist, but they have degrees of their own. They are mostly business schools, with a few christian colleges. Recently, though, christian colleges were allowed to issue academic degrees, which lead to some discontent. This said, christian colleges are very small institutions, occupying a completely marginal niche, that do no research at all.

The ENS-Ulm (*), the Ecole Polytechnique (**), the Ecole des Chartes, the ENA, the Ecole du Louvre... are what we call "Grandes Ecoles". They are also public institutions, but with a completely different status than universities.

1) they are selective. The ENS-Ulm and Polytechnique have selection rates on par with Harvard, Yale and Columbia.

2) they are small. ENS-Ulm has 2200 students, all fields combined.

3) their students actually get paid. Yup.

4) they officially don't grant Phds, even if some bypasses exist. Students who want to get a Phd continue their studies at universities, where they are -- to say it frankly -- in a league of their own.


I'd say the main divide is selection. At the ENS-Ulm, you find the best of the best students in the whole country, with some excellent foreign students. Universities, on the other hand, have no right to choose their students. Faculty/students ratios and overall budgets are much better at Grandes Ecoles, too, but everything is obviously easier when you attract the few most talented students in the country.

So, as you see, the HE public system is cut in two, and what we call "universities" are only the minor league. "Grandes Ecoles" are the real McCoy. That's why universities are underfunded : the elite are trained elsewhere. It's not impossible to follow a nice career with an university background (which I have, BTW) but Grandes Ecoles students clearly have an head start. Fortunately, on the long run, things tend to equalize a little bit.


Going back a little, I react to your note on 68. In France, indeed, you may have the impression that every year is a new 68 -- even if, actually, 68 itself was a revolt following many previous others. The revolutionary myth is an important part of French collective culture. I like to compare it with guns in America : it's dangerous, it's backward, it's irrational, it leads nowhere, it's self-destructive... but it's also a part of what we are. You can't forget history that easily. You keep your guns because you're still dreaming of minutemen and cowboys ; we keep our strikes, our riots, our revolts because we're still dreaming of 1789 revolutionaries.


-------------------------
(*) Ecole Normale Supérieure, Ulm being the name of the street its located in, in the 5th arrondissement of Paris. Other ENS exist, but Ulm is by far the most prestigious. Actually, all the institutions that matter in France (ENS-Ulm, the Sorbonne, the Collège the France, the Ecole des Chartes, Henri IV, Louis-le-Grand...) are one and only campus. Centralization, here again. This said, even such places can be tight and ugly. Henri IV and the ENS have some prefab classrooms that look like Albania under the rule of Enver Hoxha.

Note within the note : Henri IV and Louis-le-Grand are what we call "Ecoles Préparatoires", or "Prépas" in short. The closest things in the US system are SLAC (S=selective).

(**) the Ecole Polytechnique is nicknamed "X" because its seal, (two crossed guns) toughly possesses this shape. It's a military school, but very few graduates actually enroll after their studies are over.

[dellaroux]

Thanks for that claification.

[dellaroux]

Thanks for that claification.

...clarification...j m'en fous de l'orthographie...! (I'm losing it with spelling today...)

[ideagirl]

Only the ENS-Ulm and the Ecole Polytechnique have capacities on par with the best US institutions. The public universities work with incredibly low budgets. Actually, in many modern countries, such places would never be qualified as "universities".

I'm curious about this.

Clearly you're not concerned about all the universities--i.e., the private ones, like the Sorbonne or the College-de-France--but U. de Bologne? Strasbourg?

The Sorbonne is not a private university. It's one of slightly more than a dozen universities that together make up the University of Paris. And the College de France is not a college/university at all; it's basically a research institute that provides some teaching services, but its "students" are professors and researchers.

And what is Bologne? Do you mean Bourgogne (U de Bourgogne, headquartered in Dijon)?

By distinguishing between public vs. private universities, which I wasn't actually considering as the splitting point, the issues of classism are raised in a different way.

There are virtually no private universities in France. I say "virtually" only because if I don't, someone somewhere is going to point out some bizarre institution that technically may qualify as a "private university." But for all intents and purposes, there are no private universities in France--a French person who goes to university is going to a public university.

And the Ecoles Nationales/Grandes Ecoles Frenchdoctor was referring to are also not private. They're public, but they operate differently than universities--admission is extremely, extremely competitive, and in at least some Ecoles Nationales (perhaps all of them?), students accepted to study there receive stipends. Yes, undergraduates with stipends. Ecoles Nationales are a type of institution that simply does not exist in the US. But they are unquestionably public, not private--they're government funded. And by the way, if Frenchdoctor and I are calling them two different things, I'm the one who's wrong. The Grandes Ecoles almost all have names like the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, the Ecole Nationale Superieure des Mines, the Ecole Nationale de This That and the Other Thing. Hence blanket term "Ecoles Nationales." But Grandes Ecoles is a correct, and probably the correct, term.

[frenchdoctor]

"Grande école" isn't a restricted term, though (unlike "university"). Many places in France call themselves "Grandes Ecoles" while they are nothing but business or engineers schools.

Like everything else in France, it's an undecipherable bureaucratic maze :

http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr/cid20268/liste-des-grandes-ecoles-et-des-grands-etablissements.html

(the explanations of the ministery are cryptographic for native french speakers as well. Don't blame yourself if you don't understand. It's normal not to understand. It's French bureaucracy.)

Usually, though, when people talk about "Grandes Ecoles", they think about the most prestigious ones : the ENS-Ulm (all fields), the Chartes (history), the Ecole du Louvre (fine arts), Polytechnique (technology)...

The College de France isn't an university, as there are no students and no degrees. It's a place where the most brilliant researchers in the country (one per field) give lectures. Such lectures are open to everyone.

Let's repeat : universities are the second market, the lower league. Students who go to the universities are students who failed everything else.

[verafrance]

You know what I was thinking this morning, in this post-grève Friday, it is a very intriguing contradiction in French society to have such a protective (and often ethical) system in place for workers (with unions, laws, traditions, attitudes, culture, the works) and the very exact extreme opposite when it comes to protecting student rights vis-à-vis their analogous hierarchy bosses, the professors and university and school administrations, the veritable patrons des étudiants.

 I think one cannot really comprehend how valuable and what an utterly fundamental contribution to society and evolution of education systems the American model of professionalization of higher ed is. With all its problems, issues, and failures, unless when confronted with another system, it's hard to think a higher ed system could be so very different and so much more problematic.

Perhaps professionalization is not the best term, but I mean by it a quality and effective system of  rights and obligations of all involved, students, profs, and administration.

[dellaroux]

And what is Bologne? Do you mean Bourgogne (U de Bourgogne, headquartered in Dijon)?

Sorry, yes, I was thinking of the woods in Paris at the same time I was writing about it. U de Bougogne in Dijon it is, of course; I know a prof from there.

This is very helpful. As is obvious, I've only had glancing interactions with these institutions--a couple of students who've requested research information from articles I've written, a couple of instructors who've been very helpful in answering questions or assisting me in my own research, and an invited discussion following a friend's presentation on her <<these>>.

It's one of the problems of only being able to be there for a brief time each year, and of having had rather sketchy support from my own faculty in terms of connection-building. As I've explained elsewhere, the program I was in didn't encourage much in the way of focused international work and the advisors I worked with were not very well-connected themselves, nor did they seem to see why I needed to travel to see the documents or study the places I was writing about.

I think I've seen some of the more distinctive modern buildings in Paris that you mention, also--I sometimes like odd structures (Gaudi, Hundertwasser, MIT's older Saarinen Chaple
 
   http://figure-ground.com/mit_chapel/

and more recent Stata Center, for example)

   http://web.mit.edu/facilities/construction/completed/stata.html

but those were decidedly weird--and dreary inside, as I recall.

Stressed concrete and rubber floor matting don't wear very well, and some architects seem to forget that a new modern building will soon be an old modern building--one that needs to be able to age gracefully....

The very high-powered, competitive thrust of French students I've met both here and there is explained, then, by what sounds like an almost Darwinian pressure on them, which I have certainly known about at the level of the lycee--examinations, etc.--from friends' kids--and from one friend's experience with three of her offspring who have gone through the medical school at Dijon as well.

So their frustration with nonproductive profs starts to make better sense to me--if they have to do all that work to be admitted, then fight for a reasonable education (which I'd say was my post-MA experience) from those with a sinecure and little motivation to produce beyond it, I can see how that would be a concern.

Speaking of France, I have to sign off for at least three days now to get a <<proposition>> finished, but I'll be interested to follow this conversation on returning. (If the conference paper is accepted, I may be there in late May/early June...quel probleme!).

[ideagirl]

(the explanations of the ministery are cryptographic for native french speakers as well. Don't blame yourself if you don't understand. It's normal not to understand. It's French bureaucracy.)

It amazes me that Kafka was not French.

Two small English details:
(1) Indecipherable, not undecipherable. God only knows why.
(2) Ministry, not ministery. Again, God only knows why.

[daurousseau]

Sorry, yes, I was thinking of the woods in Paris at the same time I was writing about it.

Does this suggest that dellaroux used to hang out in the Bois de Boulogne? Hmmm. Reminders me of a certain French movie. Did it begin "Les demoiselles du....?"

[ideagirl]

Sorry, yes, I was thinking of the woods in Paris at the same time I was writing about it.

Does this suggest that dellaroux used to hang out in the Bois de Boulogne? Hmmm. Reminders me of a certain French movie. Did it begin "Les demoiselles du....?"

I don't think we're allowed to discuss what posters may or may not have gotten up to in the Bois de Boulogne. We would probably get censored by the moderators.

[verafrance]

I am extremely curious as to what is going to happen with Valérie Pécresse's proposed university reform, now that the conflict is escalating. I don't know much about her, but if she is as skilled a negotiator and politician as she is performing in media debates, I think she has a chance, even if the largely left-wing French academy has now picked up their pitchforks and are barricading in the trenches.

I don't understand all the complexities of what is at stake with the proposed reforms, but, in a way, I think both Pécresse and her antagonists are correct, that is, if the reforms are voted in place, the resulting French university system  will be a mix of some of the benefits claimed by Pécresse with some of the alleged future  problems the Left is railing against.

[dellaroux]

Sorry, yes, I was thinking of the woods in Paris at the same time I was writing about it.

Does this suggest that dellaroux used to hang out in the Bois de Boulogne? Hmmm. Reminders me of a certain French movie. Did it begin "Les demoiselles du....?"

I don't think we're allowed to discuss what posters may or may not have gotten up to in the Bois de Boulogne. We would probably get censored by the moderators.

Sorry not to be able to offer anything so exciting as a <<scandale.>> I've been in the Bois twice, but just to see the Museum of Traditional Arts and Crafts, which I would gladly camp out in for months on end if allowed.

I was thinking about it because of a wonderful jewelry show that was up in the basement last time I was there. Several pieces tied to something I was writing about, was all.

However...

In one of Cleveland Amory's books about his cats, he digresses to discuss a period of time spent with the late Duke and <<Duchesse>> de Winsor, on assignment to ghost-write her autobiography.

He bowed out (literally), disgusted with the whole scene, about which he offers some interesting hints...I had to Google the topic to find out what he was getting at...)

So, no, nothing that complex. No "Sunday in the Park with George," as it were...although I might like to go see the house, just for curiosity's sake, next time I'm there.

But the museum, that's certainly worth a visit anytime.

[frenchdoctor]

I don't understand all the complexities of what is at stake with the proposed reforms, but, in a way, I think both Pécresse and her antagonists are correct, that is, if the reforms are voted in place, the resulting French university system  will be a mix of some of the benefits claimed by Pécresse with some of the alleged future  problems the Left is railing against.

The academic left is not the only one to oppose Pecresse's reforms. All the academics are against it, including the moderately conservative associations.

In short, the idea is to run universities like corporate business. The administrators will get full powers on the careers of teachers, the same way executives rule the careers of petty employees. In other words, the decree reverses the hierarchy between administrators and faculty. 

So, actually, academic freedom is at stake here. If your field isn't trendy, if you don't entertain your students cowardly enough, if your studies are against the doxa, if you don't make the big bucks, you can be easily and directly punished by admins.

It means all confidential fields will probably disappear.

- You're studying hittite ? Too bad. Not trendy. Few students. No corporate contracts. You're fired.
- You're studying video games ? Kewl ! Students love it ! And the industry is pouring some cash, too ! You're promoted !

The evaluation system will also use standardised tests to measure the research output. French scholars hate that kind of Taylorism. It means crappy researchers who publish hundreds of worthless articles and attend ORT-like conferences will get bonus ; while someone who spends 4 years writing a groundbreaking monograph will be considered as unproductive (*).

Researchers aren't against evaluation, but you can't standardize the job of a philosopher the same way you can standardize the job of corporate workers (**). Try to evaluate Yves Bonnefoy essays on poetry by using corporate standards, for example. Just try, for fun.

(And I point out that "admins" in France are representants of the Ministery. It means left wing scholars will risk trouble under a conservative government, and the opposite if government changes).

This measures are one more step toward corporate academia. Universities will have to sell cheap knowledge the same way Wal-Mart sells cheap goods.

(Sorry for typos. No time to check.)

---------------
(*) For example, Laurent Lafforgue is one of the most brilliant scientists on earth today. But he refuses the system of scientific publications.
http://www.ihes.fr/~lafforgue/textes/pourlascience.pdf
According to the new rules, he would be punished, if not fired.
 
(**) That doesn't mean I endorse the standardisation of corporate work. Taylorism sucks. However, Taylorism at university not only sucks, but is also ludicrously meaningless.