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[geonerd]

My recent "favorite" conversation, which took place after I handed back drafts of essays.

Student: Do I have to revise this?

Me: You have my comments on the draft.

Student: But I do I have to revise this before I turn in the final copy?

Me: I provided detailed comments on your draft.

Student: Do I have to revise my draft?

Me: Please read the comments I wrote on your draft.

Student: Looks hopelessly perplexed OK...but I still don't know if you're expecting me to revise this.

Me: Looks around for a brick wall to bang head against.

For heaven's sake, what was wrong with replying, "Yes, you should revise your draft according to the detailed comments I provided"? The student was likely perplexed at having someone from whom he or she is supposed to be learning get irritated rather than directly answer a straightforward question.

Graduate students know how rough drafts work. The student can certainly choose not to revise her paper, but the student must make that decision for herself.  I choose not to enable people who would abdicate responsibility for their decision making, and in this case, responsibility for the grade that would result from that decision. I certainly hope that students in my class learn to develop their sense of personal responsibility.

[cc_alan]

Graduate students know how rough drafts work. The student can certainly choose not to revise her paper, but the student must make that decision for herself.  I choose not to enable people who would abdicate responsibility for their decision making, and in this case, responsibility for the grade that would result from that decision. I certainly hope that students in my class learn to develop their sense of personal responsibility.

I drive my students crazy in the Chem II lab (frosh level) because I turn them loose about 1/2 through the quarter and I let them make their own decisions. A big part of many of the experiments in the lab involves accuracy and precision (multiple data runs). In the beginning I give them advice as to whether they should do additional runs based on their trials and I try to show them what to look for when doing a preliminary evaluation.

And after doing this for a few weeks, I announce to the lab that I won't do it anymore and they are responsible for their own data. If they are happy with their data, then so am I and they don't need to do more trials. And some of them are surprised when their report is graded and they score poorly on precision.

It's not an easy skill for them to learn (personal responsibility).

Me: "What do you think you should do?"

Student: "I think I should do what you tell me to do."

Alan

[case_insensitive]

Me: "What do you think you should do?"

Student: "I think I should do what you tell me to do."

Me. "Think!"

Student: (hopefully starts thinking)

[cc_alan]

Me: "What do you think you should do?"

Student: "I think I should do what you tell me to do."

Me. "Think!"

Student: (hopefully starts thinking)

To their credit, many of them do.

Student (with data that obviously needs another trial): "What should I do?"

Me: "I haven't a clue."

Student: "Argh! Fine. I'll do another trial."

Me: "Really? I never suggested that you should do another one."

Student: "Yeah, yeah. Sell it elsewhere!"

Me: "So why did you ask me if you already knew what you needed to do?"

Student: "Because I wanted that warm fuzzy feeling that I was about to do the right thing."

Me: "Learn to trust in your feelings. Let go... oops. Sorry. Started channeling Star Wars."

Alan

[egilson]

Graduate students know how rough drafts work. The student can certainly choose not to revise her paper, but the student must make that decision for herself.  I choose not to enable people who would abdicate responsibility for their decision making, and in this case, responsibility for the grade that would result from that decision. I certainly hope that students in my class learn to develop their sense of personal responsibility.

I'm sorry. I completely missed that this was a graduate student rather than an 18 or 19-year old undergraduate who might still be struggling just to get to class dressed appropriately for the weather with books, paper, and writing implements in hand. Yes, someone in a graduate program should know how rough drafts work and should know as well how to take responsibility for his or her own learning (though I have had to nicely explain to a few folks who are new to my graduate cohort that they should pull their thumbs from their heinies and go looking for resources rather than waiting for those to be handed to them).

However, I'd still say that the best response would be "That's up to you," and I maintain that giving a direct rather than an evasive answer to a direct (if dumb) question is less frustrating all around and in no way enabling. I'll admit, though, that given my own choices, I'll play only a few rounds of "Guess what I'm thinking" with someone before smiling, saying "Thank you," and leaving to go talk to someone more willing to be engaged.

[qwertie]

This thread is scaring me off from a future in teaching.

[geonerd]

However, I'd still say that the best response would be "That's up to you," and I maintain that giving a direct rather than an evasive answer to a direct (if dumb) question is less frustrating all around and in no way enabling.

Point taken. However, I do get frustrated when upper level students and particularly graduate students cling to the "I think I should do what you tell me to do" mentality, as described by Alan. This is compounded when its week 12 and I'm sleep-deprived.

[geoteo]

Students are working on some study questions with different wording than is in the textbook.

Student: I can't find the answer to this question.

Me: You're in the correct section; you may have to put a few ideas together to answer completely.

Student works for several more minutes, and finally crafts a satisfactory answer.

Student (to his study team, with a big grin as if he has finally understood a clever joke):  Okay, NOW I see what's going on--she's trying to get us to think!

[relationalista]

Context: the course is a fourth-year undergraduate seminar in European contemporary art history. This is three weeks before the end of term. Presentation guidelines -- with topic suggestions, appropriate framework, etc. -- were handed out in week one of the course, presentations have been ongoing through the term, and Affable But Scattered (ABS) student appears in my office two days before his presentation -- yesterday.

ABS: I came to talk to you about my presentation. I haven't thought about this much so far, but I think I want to talk about QVR.

Me: Well, QVR is an interesting artist. But she is North American, and this class is about *European* art. You should be working on something related to the course content -- or make a very clear argument about the relation to something that we've already covered.

ABS: Oh. How do I do that?

Me: Well, you got the books that are in your hand from the library, so if you went back there and did some more searching of topics related to the course material and scope you could probably find something appropriate. It's really late in the term to be having this conversation, but if I knew what you were interested in I could perhaps make some suggestions. What is it that interests you?

ABS: Ummm, I don't really know. Maybe photography?

Me: Have you looked at the photo magazines in the library?

ABS: But those are all from, like, right now, right? Didn't you want us to do something, like, more historical? (I guess the 90s is historical for some of my students ...)

Me: The library doesn't throw out magazine issues when new ones come in. There's an archive of bound magazines. Libraries *keep* information.

ABS: So how should I find a topic?

Me: Well, you should go to the library and search through the following XYZ resources to see if there's something that's appropriate and appealing. And you should take another look at the guidelines to make sure that this fits within course content.

ABS: When do your office hours end?

Me: In 40 minutes.

ABS: So, like, I can go to the library and come back and see you again?

Me: My office hours end in 40 minutes. After that, I'm in meetings and classes for the rest of the day. It takes time to do research. And your presentation is in 48 hours.

ABS (doing an hour-calculation with his finger in the air and mouthing the number of hours in a day as he figures out that this is indeed the case): Oh. I guess it is. So can I come back and see you after I go to the library?

Me: Research takes time, ABS. I rather doubt that you'll find enough useful information in time to come back and ask me about it before the library closes.

ABS: Yeah, I know research takes time. So, I'm going to the library now, and I'll come back and see you.

Me: Really. Ok, good luck.

ABS, mercifully, did not reappear, but the presentation is tomorrow, and hopes are not high.

[rowan1]

Intro class - Freshpeeps.
Nice student - had some medical issues so I let her write about a different production then the rest of the class.  Paper was due last week.  She brought it today.

NS: So, does the paper actually have to be 1000 words?
Me:  I don't actually count the words, but the word count gives you an sense of my expectations. 
NS  I think all I got was around 500 words.
Me:  Did you review the instructions for the format and content of the paper?
NS: Yeah, this morning. I think I got it covered though.
Me:  Did you state your opinion?
NS: yeah
Me:  Did you identify at least 3 ways you are going to support your opinion?
NS: yeah
Me: Did you write a thesis statement?
NS: kinda
Me: The assignment is basically for a 5 paragraph essay although I perfer to call it a 5 part essay.
NS: Well I kinda talked about all the great stuff we have been learning in here and applied it to the play so I don't actually have 5 paragraphs I just have 3 but the second paragraph is really detailed.
Me:  Take it back.  Look at the notes on the assignment.  Come up with a thesis statement.  Pick 3 ways to support it.  Write a 5 paragraph essay.  Give it to me Thursday.
NS:  Don't you want to look at it?
Me: no.
NS: But how can you know I didn't do it right?
Me; I just know.

[oseph]

Context: the course is a fourth-year undergraduate seminar in European contemporary art history. This is three weeks before the end of term. Presentation guidelines -- with topic suggestions, appropriate framework, etc. -- were handed out in week one of the course, presentations have been ongoing through the term, and Affable But Scattered (ABS) student appears in my office two days before his presentation -- yesterday.

ABS: I came to talk to you about my presentation. I haven't thought about this much so far, but I think I want to talk about QVR.

Me: Well, QVR is an interesting artist. But she is North American, and this class is about *European* art. You should be working on something related to the course content -- or make a very clear argument about the relation to something that we've already covered.

ABS: Oh. How do I do that?

Me: Well, you got the books that are in your hand from the library, so if you went back there and did some more searching of topics related to the course material and scope you could probably find something appropriate. It's really late in the term to be having this conversation, but if I knew what you were interested in I could perhaps make some suggestions. What is it that interests you?

ABS: Ummm, I don't really know. Maybe photography?

Me: Have you looked at the photo magazines in the library?

ABS: But those are all from, like, right now, right? Didn't you want us to do something, like, more historical? (I guess the 90s is historical for some of my students ...)

Me: The library doesn't throw out magazine issues when new ones come in. There's an archive of bound magazines. Libraries *keep* information.

ABS: So how should I find a topic?

Me: Well, you should go to the library and search through the following XYZ resources to see if there's something that's appropriate and appealing. And you should take another look at the guidelines to make sure that this fits within course content.

ABS: When do your office hours end?

Me: In 40 minutes.

ABS: So, like, I can go to the library and come back and see you again?

Me: My office hours end in 40 minutes. After that, I'm in meetings and classes for the rest of the day. It takes time to do research. And your presentation is in 48 hours.

ABS (doing an hour-calculation with his finger in the air and mouthing the number of hours in a day as he figures out that this is indeed the case): Oh. I guess it is. So can I come back and see you after I go to the library?

Me: Research takes time, ABS. I rather doubt that you'll find enough useful information in time to come back and ask me about it before the library closes.

ABS: Yeah, I know research takes time. So, I'm going to the library now, and I'll come back and see you.

Me: Really. Ok, good luck.

ABS, mercifully, did not reappear, but the presentation is tomorrow, and hopes are not high.

Please update post-presentation!

[aud_enigma]

Student (to his study team, with a big grin as if he has finally understood a clever joke):  Okay, NOW I see what's going on--she's trying to get us to think!

Oooo, you DEVIL, you!  How tricky of you to make students think.  They ought to demand a refund on their tuition. 

[oseph]

Student (to his study team, with a big grin as if he has finally understood a clever joke):  Okay, NOW I see what's going on--she's trying to get us to think!

Oooo, you DEVIL, you!  How tricky of you to make students think.  They ought to demand a refund on their tuition. 

Yeah, they are paying YOU to do the hard stuff.

[scheherazade]

NS: But how can you know I didn't do it right?
Me; I just know.

True wisdom.

[gourmetless]

NS: But how can you know I didn't do it right?
Me; I just know.

True wisdom.

I'm good that way.  It's a gift.