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macaroon
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« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2008, 11:13:39 PM » |
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She just handed in a paper to me where half of her paper was excuses as to why she couldn't do the paper. Oh, that's so fabulous. She never came to visit me. No, instead she went to visit my chair. Can you guess how that ended? With my chair laughing in my office. You're so lucky. My ex-chair would have sided with her, ordered me to allow her to make up the assignment without a penalty, and dinged me on my annual evaluation for not being student-centered. Guess why I left? Oh, now I thought of something. Perhaps the wise forumites can help? What if I didn't dodge the conversation with this student, and she comes back to talk to me? The reason that my chair sided so strongly with me is that I've already been involved with the dean of students over this particular student. There's a trail of material demonstrating that I've been trying hard to help this student, and she's been screwing up anyhow. It remains now that the student tried to rat me out to my boss. That's a dirty move, and after thinking about it for a little while, I think I have a right to be angry with her. If she comes to see me, can I let her know that it was a rotten thing to do? |
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systeme_d_
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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2008, 12:03:28 AM » |
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macaroon,
No, you should definitely not chide her for complaining to your chair.
If you take her to task for "ratting you out," you will confirm her suspicion that she has power over you.
Your job is to be her professor, not someone who is afraid of / angered by being "ratted out." You must remain serenely above it all, and merely give her the grade she earned.
(The grade is not punishment for going to the chair. It is the grade she earned for the failing paper she submitted.)
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Systeme_D is right. <rah rah RESEARCH!> |
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magistra
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2008, 12:13:17 AM » |
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Hmm...it may be in the way you say it. If you tell her it was "unprofessional and unproductive" it might be ok, and save a future prof some trouble. I do agree with Systeme D, but it's as if they think we don't talk. Letting her know that not only did it not work, but you know about it, might wake her up. Or, just let it go.
I never understand this manipulative crap. If they complained to their boss's boss without ever saying something to their immediately supervisor, don't they see that he will do his best to make life a living hell? Why do they think this is a good idea? It would never have even occurred to me to complain to the chair when I was in grad school.
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First it was Wolfram and Hart, now it's Blackboard. There's not much moral difference, if you ask me. -- Malcha
Grammar is the chocolate in the buttery croissant of life. -- Yellowtractor
Okay, so that was petty. Today, I feel like embracing pettiness. -- Mended Drum
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geonerd
Couldn't be an apex predator so I settled for being a
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 5,265
Do not take the bait
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2008, 01:58:38 AM » |
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macaroon,
No, you should definitely not chide her for complaining to your chair.
If you take her to task for "ratting you out," you will confirm her suspicion that she has power over you.
Your job is to be her professor, not someone who is afraid of / angered by being "ratted out." You must remain serenely above it all, and merely give her the grade she earned.
(The grade is not punishment for going to the chair. It is the grade she earned for the failing paper she submitted.)
Chime with all of the above. In addition, scolding her will give her ammo to argue that you are "out to get her, and that any future bad grade is vengeance because she complained about you. My recent "favorite" conversation, which took place after I handed back drafts of essays. Student: Do I have to revise this? Me: You have my comments on the draft. Student: But I do I have to revise this before I turn in the final copy? Me: I provided detailed comments on your draft. Student: Do I have to revise my draft? Me: Please read the comments I wrote on your draft. Student: Looks hopelessly perplexed OK...but I still don't know if you're expecting me to revise this. Me: Looks around for a brick wall to bang head against. |
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 02:01:10 AM by geonerd »
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How many of your grandmothers still are living, and how is their health?
Traffic doesn't care what I think of it. |
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egilson
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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2008, 07:30:05 AM » |
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My recent "favorite" conversation, which took place after I handed back drafts of essays.
Student: Do I have to revise this?
Me: You have my comments on the draft.
Student: But I do I have to revise this before I turn in the final copy?
Me: I provided detailed comments on your draft.
Student: Do I have to revise my draft?
Me: Please read the comments I wrote on your draft.
Student: Looks hopelessly perplexed OK...but I still don't know if you're expecting me to revise this.
Me: Looks around for a brick wall to bang head against.
For heaven's sake, what was wrong with replying, " Yes, you should revise your draft according to the detailed comments I provided"? The student was likely perplexed at having someone from whom he or she is supposed to be learning get irritated rather than directly answer a straightforward question. |
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To anyone who is not a blockhead, all the sciences are interesting. - Marc Bloch
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macaroon
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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2008, 09:16:18 AM » |
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Hmm...it may be in the way you say it. If you tell her it was "unprofessional and unproductive" it might be ok, and save a future prof some trouble. I do agree with Systeme D, but it's as if they think we don't talk. Letting her know that not only did it not work, but you know about it, might wake her up. Or, just let it go.
I never understand this manipulative crap. If they complained to their boss's boss without ever saying something to their immediately supervisor, don't they see that he will do his best to make life a living hell? Why do they think this is a good idea? It would never have even occurred to me to complain to the chair when I was in grad school.
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. I'm in my first semester on the T-track here, and I think she knew exactly what she was doing by going to my boss. She's already tried to pull a stunt on me. I contacted the dean of students immediately for advice when she started having problems last month (late assignment and weird excuses). I made her a deal. The next day she came back and told me that she spoke with the dean of students and that the dean of students thought the deal was too harsh. That was a lie, because the dean of students told me that the deal was on the "generous side" of appropriate. Then she flunked another assignment, and she went to my chair. I'm guessing that was because she's got no more pull with the dean of students. I don't know if she understands that this type of behavior can lead to real consequences in the outside world. I don't have anything to gain by chewing her out, but as her educator I feel a responsibility towards mentoring her. I should probably just wash my hands of the whole thing and not spend any more effort on it. I'll take pleasure in being a sanctimonious priss. I'll help her in office hours and then probably flunk her anyways. |
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grasshopper
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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2008, 09:22:53 AM » |
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I don't know if she understands that this type of behavior can lead to real consequences in the outside world. I don't have anything to gain by chewing her out, but as her educator I feel a responsibility towards mentoring her.
Are you sure this is your motivation? You sure it's not that you want to watch her face fall as her delicate house of cards blows over? Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't blame you if this was the case. You're human, and she sounds like a twit of the highest order. But your second thought sounds best - flunk her sanctimoniously. Her behaviour is leading to real consequences in the inside world right now. Let her learn the lesson on her own when it simply continues not to work. If she's going to learn, she'll learn from her mistakes. If she's determined not to, though, no amount of talking to her is going to teach her anything. |
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yemaya
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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2008, 09:45:55 AM » |
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I never understand this manipulative crap. If they complained to their boss's boss without ever saying something to their immediately supervisor, don't they see that he will do his best to make life a living hell? Why do they think this is a good idea? It would never have even occurred to me to complain to the chair when I was in grad school.
The problem is that students who pull this crap either think of themselves as their professor's boss (i.e. my tuition pays your salary) or as though this is a customer service situation in which you can complain to a succession of "managers" until you get the answer you want. Plenty of institutions out there enforce this mentality. |
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Historians are gossips who tease the dead. ~Voltaire
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macaroon
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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2008, 10:10:02 AM » |
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I never understand this manipulative crap. If they complained to their boss's boss without ever saying something to their immediately supervisor, don't they see that he will do his best to make life a living hell? Why do they think this is a good idea? It would never have even occurred to me to complain to the chair when I was in grad school.
The problem is that students who pull this crap either think of themselves as their professor's boss (i.e. my tuition pays your salary) or as though this is a customer service situation in which you can complain to a succession of "managers" until you get the answer you want. Plenty of institutions out there enforce this mentality. Yes, this is a problem with this student. I've heard her speak in some derogatory terms about where her tuition dollars are going - but this was before she started flunking my class. Grasshopper - I am a sanctimonious priss. That's the role I play best, and definitely my path of least resistance. |
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grasshopper
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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2008, 10:24:58 AM » |
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Grasshopper - I am a sanctimonious priss. That's the role I play best, and definitely my path of least resistance.
See, now, you're already in prime position. Too often, I opt for the immediate gratification of a shake down. Not always the best choice. |
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yemaya
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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2008, 11:03:24 AM » |
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I never understand this manipulative crap. If they complained to their boss's boss without ever saying something to their immediately supervisor, don't they see that he will do his best to make life a living hell? Why do they think this is a good idea? It would never have even occurred to me to complain to the chair when I was in grad school.
The problem is that students who pull this crap either think of themselves as their professor's boss (i.e. my tuition pays your salary) or as though this is a customer service situation in which you can complain to a succession of "managers" until you get the answer you want. Plenty of institutions out there enforce this mentality. Yes, this is a problem with this student. I've heard her speak in some derogatory terms about where her tuition dollars are going - but this was before she started flunking my class. No doubt flunking will do little to change her attitude. These kinds of students tend to work little and whine lots and they never recognize their own roles in their poor performance. It's even worse when they have a lofty goal (i.e. med school, law school or other competitive grad program) that they think is owed to them. Like the kid who wants to be a lawyer because s/he thinks s/he'll earn a gazillon bucks, but who lacks the natural talent for it and isn't willing to put in the hard work it takes to make them even competent. Or even the work required to earn a respectable grad in a gen ed. They've never learned that most goals require hard work and they need to work and prove themselves. |
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Historians are gossips who tease the dead. ~Voltaire
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macaroon
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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2008, 12:04:40 PM » |
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Yes, this is a problem with this student. I've heard her speak in some derogatory terms about where her tuition dollars are going - but this was before she started flunking my class.
No doubt flunking will do little to change her attitude. [/quote] It hasn't prior to this semester. |
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mountainguy
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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2008, 12:08:26 PM » |
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Macaroon: I deal with students like this on a regular basis and I sympathize with your frustration. In an ideal world, scolding her for going over her head might make her think twice about her behavior. But in the real world, I'm not sure there's anything you can say to such a student that will get the right message across without arousing resentment. Leave it to the administrators or her academic advisor to tell her that her behavior is unprofessional.
And although failure doesn't seem to be having any short-term effects on her behavior, I gaurantee that you'll see an eventual attitude adjustment after she fails out of school.
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grasshopper
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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2008, 12:25:48 PM » |
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And although failure doesn't seem to be having any short-term effects on her behavior, I gaurantee that you'll see an eventual attitude adjustment after she fails out of school.
Or not. How many people have you met that have a chip on their shoulder from some injustice in college? I've met tons. But either way, the choice to learn (or not) is her own. |
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mountainguy
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« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2008, 01:33:42 PM » |
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Or not. How many people have you met that have a chip on their shoulder from some injustice in college? I've met tons.
Really? I've met people with a few isolated complaints, but never anyone who was totally bitter about their college experience. But either way, the choice to learn (or not) is her own.
Agreed, grassy. |
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