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[nucleo]

I read a study once, some years ago, that had the basic conclusion that students who write poorly also cannot tell good writing from poor writing when they see it (which is maybe why so many contest their grades). 

This one?  Kruger and Dunning's Unskilled and Unaware of It:  How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

[bourbonrose]

Wasn't there a recent CHE article on this very subject?

[barcrossliar]

With the writer's permission, I showed a sample essay in my class yesterday. We discussed it in some detail; students did a good job of identifying its strengths and weaknesses. And then I asked the students what grade the essay should earn. Most said a B, which is indeed what it earned. But then I had this exchange, with a student who's earning a D in the class:

Student: I think it should earn an A.

Me: OK, even though we identified a couple little problems? Can you explain why?

Student: Yeah. It should earn an A. I mean it's not very creative, and it's pretty average, but I'd give it an A.

Me: But an A is reserved for excellent work. Average work earns a C. Is that what you mean?

Student: No, a C is too low. It should get the A. I mean, it's pretty average, but it should get an A.

Repeat.

I think she was just trying to lay the groundwork for trying to convince me that her D work deserves Bs instead.

I read a study once, some years ago, that had the basic conclusion that students who write poorly also cannot tell good writing from poor writing when they see it (which is maybe why so many contest their grades).  Maybe she actually thought it was really good?

I disagree.  If you read the exchange, you can see that the student thought it was "pretty average" and "not creative."  the student's issue seems to be as dr alcott suggested, that such work deserves an A despite not being particularly good.

[virgo_imperfecta]

I teach general education classes at an arts college.

Student: I'm having some issues with the textbook.
Prof. Virgo: What kind of issues?
Student: It's pretty wordy.
Prof. Virgo: I know the sections we are dealing with right now are highly technical, but the class discussion will help you out.
Student: No, that's not it. There are just so many words. We're art students, after all. Why do we have to read?
Prof. Virgo: *gape*....Uh. Um. You're in college...?

[galactic_hedgehog]

Virgo, can't the students have the graphic novel version of the textbook?

This semester, Joe is taking both my regular class, which he has come to only half of the meetings, and my online class, in which he has taken a grand total of two quizzes and made one post in a discussion.  After he handed in his test (I shudder to look at it), I called him back before he left the room.

Me: Joe, I'm wondering why you haven't handed in any labs yet.

Joe: Oh, yeah, sorry, but I'm still waiting to get the lab manual.  That's why I haven't done any.

Me: There isn't a lab manual.

Joe: No?

Me: No.  The labs are posted in Moodle.  You just download them directly from it.

Joe: Oh.  I guess I should take a look at Moodle, then.

Me: head::desk

[dr_alcott]

With the writer's permission, I showed a sample essay in my class yesterday. We discussed it in some detail; students did a good job of identifying its strengths and weaknesses. And then I asked the students what grade the essay should earn. Most said a B, which is indeed what it earned. But then I had this exchange, with a student who's earning a D in the class:

Student: I think it should earn an A.

Me: OK, even though we identified a couple little problems? Can you explain why?

Student: Yeah. It should earn an A. I mean it's not very creative, and it's pretty average, but I'd give it an A.

Me: But an A is reserved for excellent work. Average work earns a C. Is that what you mean?

Student: No, a C is too low. It should get the A. I mean, it's pretty average, but it should get an A.

Repeat.

I think she was just trying to lay the groundwork for trying to convince me that her D work deserves Bs instead.

I read a study once, some years ago, that had the basic conclusion that students who write poorly also cannot tell good writing from poor writing when they see it (which is maybe why so many contest their grades).  Maybe she actually thought it was really good?

I disagree.  If you read the exchange, you can see that the student thought it was "pretty average" and "not creative."  the student's issue seems to be as dr alcott suggested, that such work deserves an A despite not being particularly good.

Yep. She realized that the paper was not excellent. She just thought it should get an A anyway.

Virgo and GH, you have my sympathies. Your students sound as though they're cut from the same cloth.

[elsie]

You may need to have a talk about what an A means to people who aren't students, such as employers and grad school admissions committees.

[polly_mer]

You may need to have a talk about what an A means to people who aren't students, such as employers and grad school admissions committees.

I've never had a talk like that go well.  The students I've had who need that talk are firmly convinced that A means "met the minimum stated requirements of the assignment" and grades less than A indicate missing parts of the assignment.  The idea that C is competent by meeting the minimum and A is excellent for being well above minimum will not sink in for them.

[chemystery]

I read a study once, some years ago, that had the basic conclusion that students who write poorly also cannot tell good writing from poor writing when they see it (which is maybe why so many contest their grades).  Maybe she actually thought it was really good?

This.  As the SO says, the toughest ones to reach are the ones who don't know how much they don't know.

Yes, there were a few discussions on these fora in various threads about the problem that people who can't do a task are not clearly able to judge their own performance on said tasks.  It's related to the observation that, for instance, far more than half the population rate themselves as better-than-average drivers (which, assuming a symmetric distribution, indicates that many of these people can't objectively judge their skills).

I'm pretty sure that I routinely underestimate the driving of just about everyone who is not me.  Admittedly, I'm not sure that leads to a great alternate hypothesis for this discussion.

[mended_drum]

Advisee:  "I want to switch philosophy courses."

Me: "You understand that it's past the drop/add date, so you'd need to find a professor who will accept you into class this late, and that's unlikely.  Why do you want to switch?"

Advisee:  "Well, it's about reason and stuff, and I thought it would be about people, but the professor seems to think behavior is based on science of the human brain.  I disagree with that."

Me:  "Can you give me any evidence that one or more of the theories of the course is actually wrong?"

Advisee:  "Well, it's mostly the book.  I don't like the book."

Me:  "That's not an answer to my question.  Look, we went through this last year with one of your history classes.  You're trying to get out of the class because it's challenging your beliefs, right?"

Advisee:  "Yeah.  I think it's bogus."

Me:  "But you don't yet understand what 'it' is.  This is the point of a liberal arts education:  you will be exposed to new ways of thinking, you will have to engage with those ideas and learn enough to understand their basis and demonstrate your mastery of the topic.  After you've done that, you'll be able to reject the ideas, if you want to, based on actual knowledge of them."

Advisee:  "So if I take this class and learn everything, I'll be able to argue against it better?!"

Me:  "You will.  Unless, you change your mind about it being bogus, of course.  But there's no way to know whether or not that will happen."

Advisee:  "So it's like that know my enemy stuff!"

Me:  "You could think of it that way."

Advisee:  "That's evil!  I am going to be untouchable!"

Me:  "Um..."

Advisee:  "See you next week, Dr. mended_drum!  You are my Professor Snape!"

Me:  "Thanks?"

[polly_mer]

Oh, Mended_Drum.  1000 street cred points to you for getting the student to take studying contrary ideas seriously.

Don't worry about the implications.  You've done the hard part of fighting the good fight and now the student is off to do the right thing.  Accept the compliment of "You are a good mentor".

[dr_alcott]

Oh, Mended_Drum.  1000 street cred points to you for getting the student to take studying contrary ideas seriously.

+1.

I'm always so happy when I see that Mended_Drum has posted a favorite conversation, because I just know it will be overflowing with awesomeness.

[alastrina]

I'm on a branch campus that shares it's campus with a branch of the local CC. They had one of our master's students (who is based on main campus) come in wanting them to proctor an online exam for her. They'll proctor out-of-state exams but not exams for a campus 45 minutes away. She gets sent over to me.

Her: I need to talk to Supervisor.

Me: She's busy at the moment. Maybe I can help you.

Her: I need you to proctor my exam.

Me: Okay she mentioned this to me a few minutes ago. Our computer labs in this region do not proctor exams. You will need to get with your college on main campus to for them to proctor it or possibly work it out so the office manager for that college on this campus can proctor it.

Her: My college is HorriblyLargeUni [my new name for this place]

Me: Actually that's the university. Your college would be the area your degree is in such as Arts and Sciences, Business, Health and Public Affairs.

Her: So I need to talk to local CC again even though they just sent me over here. <stomps off>

Me <thinking> Not exactly what I said. You're a grad student. How to you not know what your college is?



She's going to be back again. I just know it.

[mended_drum]

Don't worry about the implications.  You've done the hard part of fighting the good fight and now the student is off to do the right thing.  Accept the compliment of "You are a good mentor".

Maybe.  We'll just see whether or not he actually sticks out the class.  Last time he disappeared for three weeks to the mountains with his girlfriend, and it was "bogus" that "time to explore his relationship" was not something for which he could receive college credit.

[bioteacher]

I wonder what sort of degree requirements those credits would count towards. Maybe I don't want to think too much about that, though.