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[polly_mer]

Profxfiles, I have to ask:  Did helicopter mom then turn the phone over to a bigger authority on her end so that you got to call the dean in an escalating battle?  Who on the other end of the phone got to talk to the president?

[airball]

S: But it's my opinion.  You can't mark my opinion wrong.

What a bizarre claim.  I think I would have gazed in blank incomprehension.  But then, I tend to get low marks in the student evals on the question "Is supportive of alternate viewpoints in the classroom".  I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean in a physics class.

[/quote]

We get this in history, which is why I do two things:

1. Refuse to accept any papers on the Civil War. I'm sorry, but you cannot prove that it had nothing to do with slavery.

2. Tell them repeatedly, "I love you all. But I don't care what you think, even a little bit. I care what you can prove using evidence."

The odd thing is that you have conservative students who hate the idea of cultural relativism, but insist that their opinions about the past are valid simply because they are their opinions. Is there a name for this? Factual relativism?

airball

[profxfiles]

Profxfiles, I have to ask:  Did helicopter mom then turn the phone over to a bigger authority on her end so that you got to call the dean in an escalating battle?  Who on the other end of the phone got to talk to the president?

To the best of my knowledge, the smackdown from my chair silenced mom. No idea if anyone tried to go over his head, but my chair briefed the dean right after the call and our dean pretty much takes a "I trust my faculty and chairs" view towards all of this...

[anthroid]

I stopped saying even that years ago.  I do not care what they believe.  Their beliefs--based on nothing but sunshine and snowflakes--are irrelevant to the scientific fact of human and other evolution.  Indeed, I now argue that evolution is not a hypothesis (I have to explain what a hypothesis is); it is not a theory (I have to explain what a theory is).  It really is approaching scientific law, like, of course, gravity.  For some reason, scientific law isn't all that persuasive; some colleagues say something like "this is not an opinion; it's scientific fact."  But to me scientific law, using gravity on earth as an example, ought to be more powerful.  Like, I'll say, "here's a pencil.  What is going to happen if I let loose of it?"  Of course, they all say it will fall to the floor.  "How do you know that?"  Gravity, they say, as though it's self-evident.  "YES!" I respond.  "Evolution is just like gravity:  proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  There is no scientific question about its force on human biology.  It happens, just like gravity.  How it happens may be the subject of some discussion, but that it happens is without question."  And, I'll say, "gravity doesn't care whether you 'believe in it.'  It will still work its force on the earth.  Evolution, likewise, doesn't care about your beliefs. It will work on you whether you believe in it or not.  So you need to drop the idea of belief here."

I still get "she teaches her opinion as though it is fact" comment.  Bleh.

Careful there.

Theories and laws are not and were never intended to accomplish the same thing.

Laws describe nothing but observed behavior.

Theories attempt to explain WHY the behavior occurs.

Thus, there is both a law of gravity, and a theory of gravity. The law of gravity says that if you drop a pencil, it will hit the floor. That's it. Nothing else.

The THEORY of gravity says that the pencil falls because every object is attracted to every other object, and the more massive an object, the stronger its attractive force. The pencil falls because it is attracted to the very massive Earth.

So, theories are NOT "junior laws" or "laws in waiting." So, if you want to argue that there is both a theory of evolution and a law of evolution, then have at it. But your students should understand that it isn't an "either/or" situation.

Well said, ScienceGuy.  As I've explained to far too many students, evolution is an observed occurrence -  a fact.  How evolution happens is the subject of several theories.

I bow to your expertise in scientific epistomology.  Mainly what I try to tell students is that there is no question that evolution, macro- or micro-, has happened and is happening.  It is not a controversy in biology and the other natural and physical sciences, and it is a foundational concept in anthropology.  It is a force in human existence (and, for that matter, non-human existence).  It is not my opinion.  It is not a political interpretation.  It is fact.  How it happens may be open to interpretation but THAT it happens is not. 

MG, that's where I disagree with you.  In fact, there are many feminisms and many ways to acknowledge, or not, discrimination against women.  Evolution is fact.  Feminism can be seen, realistically, as a political interpretation of human behavior, while evolution really cannot be, assuming we're all operating from critical analytic viewpoints as opposed to assumptions of literal biblical primacy.

[polly_mer]

Profxfiles, I have to ask:  Did helicopter mom then turn the phone over to a bigger authority on her end so that you got to call the dean in an escalating battle?  Who on the other end of the phone got to talk to the president?

To the best of my knowledge, the smackdown from my chair silenced mom. No idea if anyone tried to go over his head, but my chair briefed the dean right after the call and our dean pretty much takes a "I trust my faculty and chairs" view towards all of this...

Good, good.  It's nice to have your administration have your back on these issues.

[mountainguy]

MG, that's where I disagree with you.  In fact, there are many feminisms and many ways to acknowledge, or not, discrimination against women.  Evolution is fact.  Feminism can be seen, realistically, as a political interpretation of human behavior, while evolution really cannot be, assuming we're all operating from critical analytic viewpoints as opposed to assumptions of literal biblical primacy.

Anthroid, I don't think we're too far off in our interpretations. Epistemologically, I don't believe that feminisms represent "fact." I'm not terribly interested in whether or not students believe in them. I am interested in students being able to understand and analyze what they say. Beyond making the conscious choice to teach feminisms in the class, I try not to weigh in with my personal views.

[galactic_hedgehog]

Thus, there is both a law of gravity, and a theory of gravity. The law of gravity says that if you drop a pencil, it will hit the floor. That's it. Nothing else.

The THEORY of gravity says that the pencil falls because every object is attracted to every other object, and the more massive an object, the stronger its attractive force. The pencil falls because it is attracted to the very massive Earth.

But laws do sometimes give us information as to why things happen, if they can be expressed as a single equation.  Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation is F = GMm/r^2, which tells us the larger the mass, the stronger the force, as well as the further apart two objects are, the weaker the force between them.

Of course, we now know this is an approximation of General Relativity...

[polly_mer]

Thus, there is both a law of gravity, and a theory of gravity. The law of gravity says that if you drop a pencil, it will hit the floor. That's it. Nothing else.

The THEORY of gravity says that the pencil falls because every object is attracted to every other object, and the more massive an object, the stronger its attractive force. The pencil falls because it is attracted to the very massive Earth.

But laws do sometimes give us information as to why things happen, if they can be expressed as a single equation.  Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation is F = GMm/r^2, which tells us the larger the mass, the stronger the force, as well as the further apart two objects are, the weaker the force between them.

Of course, we now know this is an approximation of General Relativity...

But Dr. Hedgehog, it can't be an approximation because it's an EQUATION.  It's got real math and an equal sign.  Approximations have that squiggly thing and words.

[scampster]

I want this t-shirt.

[galactic_hedgehog]

OK, now I can't get Spock's line (from "Court Martial") out of my head: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity..."

[polly_mer]

OK, now I can't get Spock's line (from "Court Martial") out of my head: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity..."

Don't you go messing with my students' heads.  I just barely got them to accept the idea that all masses in the universe exert a gravitational force on each other; it's just really small most of the time.

I still haven't convinced some of them that my gravitational force on their bodies has no effect on their weight.

[scampster]

OK, now I can't get Spock's line (from "Court Martial") out of my head: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity..."

Eh, positive, negative... you just need to free your mind to changing the frame of reference here!

[polly_mer]

OK, now I can't get Spock's line (from "Court Martial") out of my head: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity..."

Eh, positive, negative... you just need to free your mind to changing the frame of reference here!

Does that fall under the category of accepting alternate viewpoints?

[galactic_hedgehog]

OK, now I can't get Spock's line (from "Court Martial") out of my head: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity..."

Don't you go messing with my students' heads.  I just barely got them to accept the idea that all masses in the universe exert a gravitational force on each other;

So do you tell them that that really cute guy they see at the gym all the time is, literally, attracted to them?

[polly_mer]

OK, now I can't get Spock's line (from "Court Martial") out of my head: "If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity..."

Don't you go messing with my students' heads.  I just barely got them to accept the idea that all masses in the universe exert a gravitational force on each other;

So do you tell them that that really cute guy they see at the gym all the time is, literally, attracted to them?

Hmm.  No, I haven't tried that.  Although, one of my students today came up with "But you can't really date a star.  They're just too hot."