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[generally_speaking]

i dont like students using "f" words. Make up assignments are less vulgar.

Are you teaching in private college?

[mystictechgal]

Student:  [huge sigh] I hate thinking.  I just like doing stuff.

McDonald's has excellent training opportunities for students of this sort, with campuses nationwide.  I'm sure there's one (or more) near you.

Not necessarily.  I'd submit that he may just have more practice, and possibly even enjoy, coming up with supporting evidence for one side or another of a question someone else has stated.  He may just not be as practiced at having to develop the question along with the argument.  Remember, even the top HS debaters are developing arguments based upon topic questions that have been given them.  They can be quite skilled at investigating both sides of the argument, yet still out of their element if they are asked to come up with the subject of debate, itself.

Of course, he could just be another clueless snowflake, and, in this case, probably is.  But, with some students I think they really don't know what you mean.  I know teens that don't understand, that are otherwise top students.  They'll tell me about an assignment worded similarly and be totally clueless about where to start.  When I tell them that the beginning of the assignment isn't to "form an argument", but to "form a question that could be argued" and then pick a side/portion/whatever, I hear "Ohhhhh".  

When I ask them how they think their teachers/the debate gods come up with topics for discussion the light really turns on.  It's never occurred to them that academic questions come from anywhere other than a big book located somewhere in the sky, I guess.  

[crowie]

I recently had a conversation with a student immediately after a class in which I had returned students' first drafts of their papers.  The drafts are not graded, they just get feedback in the form of comments.  The paper is for a literature class.

Student: [pointing to part of the paper where she had included a series of unnecessarily lengthy quotations to merely illustrate the fact that a particular event occurred in a play.  I had noted this in a marginal comment]  I don't understand, what do you want me to do here?

Me: Well, it's a very lengthy quotation to include when all you are doing is using it to point out that a particular event occurred in the play.   I just think you could shorten it, you don't need every sentence you've got there.  [Looking at other quotations in the draft] In fact, in general, you're not really analyzing your quotations, they're taking up a lot of space but not doing much in your paper yet.  You need to include quotations for the purpose of making your argument.

Student:  But I am using them to make an argument, because my argument is that [event happens in the play].

Me:  Well, see, that's part of the problem.  Unfortunately that's not much of an argument.  You've got two pages right now and I don't think that just pointing out over and over again that [event happens in the play] is going to be enough to fill a five page paper.

Student [abruptly]: Five pages?  You said it was a four page paper! [I believe on the syllabus I had written something like '4-5 pages']

Me: Four or five page paper, the point still stands, you just don't really have an argument here, you're just pointing out things that happen.  There's not enough analysis and argumentation going on, and too many lengthy quotations taking up space.  

Student [pointing to another section of the paper]: Ok, so what does this mean?

Me [seeing that she is pointing to the two sentences where she had actually done some real analysis and argumentation, which I had praised in my comments]: Ah, yes, this is the part that I thought would actually be a promising place to start!  So what you need to do is re-write your paper with these arguments and observations as the basis of your paper.  You need to make them the foundation of the new version of your paper, so that everything else you have flows from here.  You need to bring them to the beginning of your paper, work them into your intro, and then use your quotations and analysis from there... [getting a little excited about the possibility of helping student see the untapped possibilities of her paper]

Student [angrily interrupting]: But I thought this was a draft.

Me: Yes, it is.

Student: But I thought a draft was something that you write and then fix little things with and then turn it in, not something you have to mess around with and start all over again. [sighs huffily]

Me: Well it depends on how successful the first draft is.  If you actually wrote a draft that needed only a few grammatical corrections that's one thing, but if you are still working out your argument at the end of the first draft then you still need to put more work into it.  It just depends.  

[Student frowns, obviously dissatisfied with my answer.]

Me: That's the work.  That's the work of writing a good paper.  

[Student is manifestly unimpressed.]

Me: Look, I'm not asking you to do anything I don't have to do myself.  Sometimes in my own writing I write first drafts and then get to the end of them and realize that I'm still not there yet and I have to start over again.  That's just what's involved.

Student [now really annoyed] Well on the last paper I did everything you told me to do and you gave me a C!

I won't continue transcribing but the rest of the conversation consisted of me offering to meet the student for an appointment, the student insisting that there was no way she could meet me before the paper was due on Friday and ending with the student walking off in a huff with a sarcastic 'Thank you!'

I looked up my email to figure out what I had 'told' the student to do for the last paper that she was so unhappy about and found this gem, sent to me at 7.30pm on the Saturday night before the Monday morning class when the paper was due.  That assignment had been given out to them two weeks earlier and had also involved a pre-assignment task that had been given out another week before that.  So she'd had 3 weeks to talk to me about the paper when she sent me this email on the Saturday before it was due:

Hello,
 
    This is <snowflake> from your <literature> class. I need some help with the <literature> assignment. I don't know what to do or where to start. I have never done this before. If you could tell me in very detailed instructions what I am to do it would really help me a lot.
 
Thanking you in advance,
<snowflake>

What wrote back with was basically a slightly more detailed repeat of what I had told students to do on the assignment sheet and told students verbally in class (yes, she was there).  I actually felt for her a little with this email because it was obvious she was nervous about it, but seriously, waiting until less than 48 hours before it's due isn't going to help much.  Also, asking for 'detailed instructions' and then complaining that 'You gave me a C' is bulls***.

[aandsdean]

Crowie, I've had that same conversation about 40 times with students.  Even some of the same language.

I really miss teaching, but the Proustian moment you've given me here has, well, let's just say, abated that missing somewhat.

[mystictechgal]

She's clearly a snowflake, but once again I think it might be helpful to word the assignment as one where they need to form a "question up for debate" (not an argument, in and of, itself) and then attempt to answer the question by forming an argument.  

I'll admit to being a bit defensive about this particular issue.  One of the first blue books exams I took in a college class was similar.  Thankfully, for me, it was one where we had a take-home component.  We had to answer 3 essay questions based upon the Shakespearean plays that had been covered in class--1 posed question to be answered, 1 "argument" we were to make ourselves, and 1 question that would be asked and answered in class.

I'd been attending Shakespearean plays since I was 5 years old, and loved every minute. (This is why, as a freshman, I ended up getting permission to enroll in an upper-level course on the subject).  And, as a debater I certainly knew what an argument was and how to form one.  I was still a bit non-plussed at the wording of the second question, and as it was an exam I didn't feel at all comfortable asking questions about the question.  It took me a bit to understand what was being asked of me.  

I'm still rather proud that I ended up posing for myself the same question that ended up being asked as the in-class question.  I used the in-class answer to argue an opposite pov.  But, then and now, I felt/feel sorry for the students that complained that they never figured out exactly what was being asked of them in the second question.  Sometimes, semantics matter. And, a question and an argument are two different things, at least when you are new to, or impervious to, the terminology of academia.

[yellowtractor]

Student:  [huge sigh] I hate thinking.  I just like doing stuff.

McDonald's has excellent training opportunities for students of this sort, with campuses nationwide.  I'm sure there's one (or more) near you.

Not necessarily.  I'd submit that he may just have more practice, and possibly even enjoy, coming up with supporting evidence for one side or another of a question someone else has stated.  He may just not be as practiced at having to develop the question along with the argument.  Remember, even the top HS debaters are developing arguments based upon topic questions that have been given them.  They can be quite skilled at investigating both sides of the argument, yet still out of their element if they are asked to come up with the subject of debate, itself.

Of course, he could just be another clueless snowflake, and, in this case, probably is.  But, with some students I think they really don't know what you mean.  I know teens that don't understand, that are otherwise top students.  They'll tell me about an assignment worded similarly and be totally clueless about where to start.  When I tell them that the beginning of the assignment isn't to "form an argument", but to "form a question that could be argued" and then pick a side/portion/whatever, I hear "Ohhhhh".  

When I ask them how they think their teachers/the debate gods come up with topics for discussion the light really turns on.  It's never occurred to them that academic questions come from anywhere other than a big book located somewhere in the sky, I guess.  

You're so nice.

Fries up, fries down.

[crowie]

aandsdean, glad to be of service!  

I  do understand what you mean, MTG, and I have endeavored to communicate to students what I mean by words like 'thesis' and 'argument.'  I'm sure it's something that bears repeating and explaining in multiple different ways.

[magistra]

Or putting in a handout, with examples, and links to relevant websites.  Sometimes it's worth it to be able to say "Did you read the handout?"

[mystictechgal]

Student:  [huge sigh] I hate thinking.  I just like doing stuff.

McDonald's has excellent training opportunities for students of this sort, with campuses nationwide.  I'm sure there's one (or more) near you.

Not necessarily.  I'd submit that he may just have more practice, and possibly even enjoy, coming up with supporting evidence for one side or another of a question someone else has stated.  He may just not be as practiced at having to develop the question along with the argument.  Remember, even the top HS debaters are developing arguments based upon topic questions that have been given them.  They can be quite skilled at investigating both sides of the argument, yet still out of their element if they are asked to come up with the subject of debate, itself.

Of course, he could just be another clueless snowflake, and, in this case, probably is.  But, with some students I think they really don't know what you mean.  I know teens that don't understand, that are otherwise top students.  They'll tell me about an assignment worded similarly and be totally clueless about where to start.  When I tell them that the beginning of the assignment isn't to "form an argument", but to "form a question that could be argued" and then pick a side/portion/whatever, I hear "Ohhhhh".  

When I ask them how they think their teachers/the debate gods come up with topics for discussion the light really turns on.  It's never occurred to them that academic questions come from anywhere other than a big book located somewhere in the sky, I guess.  

You're so nice.

Fries up, fries down.

Thank you.  I do have a reputation for being nice, and like it.  I also have a reputation as someone you don't want to cross once you've worn off the "nice".  I'll admit, I try to address "clueless"; I have little patience with the willfully ignorant, and I'm also known for that.

(Fwiw, I quoted you only because it was the most recent and gave the complete thread of this particular discussion.  I don't necessarily disagree with you, per se, nor am I attempting to start an argument with you by having included your response in my quote.  Just offering another possible perspective--not one that I'm willing to die for, in any case.)

[slac_vap]

Here's a conversation I had today during an exam with a Chronic Text Messager (CTM).

(Context: the essay question they have to answer is "Using the events of September 11th, 2001 as an example, explain the five steps of Kenneth Burke's dramatistic cycle. Be sure to clearly label and explain each stage.")

CTM: I'm confused about this quesiton.
Me: What's confusing?
CTM: So are you asking us to write about September 11th or Burke?
Me: Both.
CTM: So we only need to write about September 11th?
Me: I want you to list the five steps in the dramatistic process according to Kenneth Burke using it as an example.
CTM: So we don't need to write about September 11th?
Me: You need to do both.
CTM: Oh.

Why would I include "using September 11th as an example" in the question prompt if I didn't mean it? Argh.

Clearly, the problem here is that you asked her to actually apply a concept, rather than just regurgitate the paragraph that she has written on a 3x5 notecard and dutifully memorized.

[rowan1]

Background - students have to write critiques on 2 of the 4 productions being presented this semester - announced at the start of the term, prior to each show's opening night, emails on each show reminding them of this go out, and it is on WebCT

Time Challenged student: I didn't see the play last week.
Me: That's a problem.
TCS: Can I write two responses for the show next week?
Me: No.
TCS: But there are no more plays.
Me: True.
TCS: So I write two responses to the next show and that will cover the assignment.
Me: No.
TCS: Oh.  What should I do?
Me: Not much you can do.
TCS: Aren't you going to help me?
Me: No.

[airball]

Student: I don't understand why we have to write papers for this [history] class.
Me: So that you can become better at thinking and writing.
Student: I'm going to be an engineer. I don't need to do any of that.
Me: *Blows own brains out*

---------------

[Two days before draft research paper is due. This is a research seminar and in theory they've been working on the paper for, oh, two and a half months.]

Student: You may not like this. I need to change my topic.
Me: You're so f***ed. [Yes, yes, don't use foul language in front of students, etc.]
Student: I know.

New topic: Navy SEALS are tough.

Sigh.

airball

[fishbrains]

Background - students have to write critiques on 2 of the 4 productions being presented this semester - announced at the start of the term, prior to each show's opening night, emails on each show reminding them of this go out, and it is on WebCT

Time Challenged student: I didn't see the play last week.
Me: That's a problem.
TCS: Can I write two responses for the show next week?
Me: No.
TCS: But there are no more plays.
Me: True.
TCS: So I write two responses to the next show and that will cover the assignment.
Me: No.
TCS: Oh.  What should I do?
Me: Not much you can do.
TCS: Aren't you going to help me?
Me: No.

Ha! Deja moo (the feeling I've heard this bull$hit before).  I just had this conversation with a student who missed multiple extra credit opportunities and wanted me to figure something else out now that he's failing the class. MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[mythbuster]

Student: Question 5 on the test isn't fair!
Me: Oh, why not?
Student: Because the test was only on Chapters 5-7, and this question asks about XX.
Me: Yes, but we learned XX in Chapter 2, this question asks you to take XX and apply it to what we learned in Chapter 5.
Student: But that's not fair! The Chapters shouldn't mix!

[summers_off]

During an exam:
Student:  I don't understand <this interrelated three-part concept>.  Isn't part 1 and part 3 saying the same thing?
Me:  No, each part is different.  Read what the definitions carefully.
Student:  But I asked you a question about this two weeks ago and I still don't understand.
Me:  <who asked the entire class if anyone had any questions before I handed out the exams>  I can't answer your question now.  That is what the exam is trying to test:  whether or not you understand and can apply the concept.
Student:  But I asked you about this two weeks ago...
Me:  Sorry.

You do know, of course, that I am going to get slammed by this student on the student evaluation question:  "Answered my questions to my satisfaction," don't you?   Sheesh.