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[exlier]

Hello.

I just discovered this website today. Amazing resource. I am F/54, looking to apply for a PhD in a specific regional language (literature).

I have spent some time off from work and school raising family over the last two decades. During this time, I did manage to teach at high-school level as it was more manageable, but my level of knowledge and interest are already at a much more advanced level than that.

Now after all these years I wish to go back to teach at a much higher level. I have looked at a lecturer position at leading Americans schools (as American schools are known to be welcoming of people of all ages) but their faculty seems to have MA or PhD from other top schools. Some who don't have these credentials probably had the right "network", which I don't at the moment.

Hence my thought of pursuing a PhD at as best a school as I can manage. Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard all have a department in my language, as do the likes of the University of Wisconsin. Better yet, the teaching opportunities exist in many other universities, even if they do not offer a PhD program themselves. So I am excited.

There is however a notion that PhD programs prefer younger people so there is more time to contribute to the academic roster of the school. Will schools mind that I am in my mid 50s already? By the time I finish my PhD (which I can fast track, actually, and get in 3 years if that is allowed) I will be close to 57 or 58.

My questions -

a. Will being 54 hurt my chances of applying for a PhD at a leading school?

b. What is the retirement age for American professors, and is there a hard cutoff? What if an individual is "young" enough to continue on until 70?

c. Should I consider a Masters and then simply hope for a "lecturer" position instead of a full professor? Are Masters degrees fully funded with a stipend too, and would a Masters be good enough to be a lecturer?

Thanks for any inputs or pointers.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

In a humanities field, even a PhD from a top school is no guarantee of a job, even for a 26-year-old.  Any top-150 school will expect anyone they hire to show promise of a spectacular research career.

Age discrimination is mainly illegal, but hard to avoid and harder to prove.  Mandatory retirement is not an issue at most US schools.

Whyever do you think you can get a PhD in 3 years?  - DvF

[zharkov]

Just to clarify, are you a US citizen looking to teach at an American college or university?  (The way you worded a couple of things made me wonder.)  If you are not a US citizen, you need a student visa to come here (relatively easy to get) and a work visa if you want to teach or do other work (harder to get).

In my opinion, most foreign language instruction in the US is done at the high school level, and in many states, HS teachers are required (or expected) to have master's degrees. So getting a master's in this language will not distinguish you.  But taking the 5 years or more to get a PhD will not guarantee you a job teaching college.

And to my mind, it isn't about age so much as the field you are interested in.  If you wanted to get a PhD in accounting, that is another matter.

[exlier]

Thanks for the responses.

No, I am not an American citizen. So a student visa would do for now. I wouldn't mind considering work opportunities later in Canada (where I have family) if US gets even more stringent with work authorizations, which is quite possible given how the US economy is going.

I guess my question is more about whether a PhD is pratical for me. I am confident that once I am in the right circles I have what it takes to impress people. My family comes from a line of national poets in my country and our social connections "back home" are stellar. It's just that I know no one in the US or in these university circles.

Am I correct in concluding from these responses that leading universities will still be interested in a 55 year old applicant as long as there is academic merit?

[voxprincipalis]

I guess my question is more about whether a PhD is pratical for me. I am confident that once I am in the right circles I have what it takes to impress people. My family comes from a line of national poets in my country and our social connections "back home" are stellar.

And this is relevant to your ability to do stellar PhD work how, exactly?

Am I correct in concluding from these responses that leading universities will still be interested in a 55 year old applicant as long as there is academic merit?

"Interested" in admitting you to the program, or in hiring you? It is unclear from your question.

VP

[testingthewaters]

Am I correct in concluding from these responses that leading universities will still be interested in a 55 year old applicant as long as there is academic merit?

No, you are not right. See reactions of daniel_v_f and zharkov above, who both pointed out how incredably difficult it is to get an academic job in a humanities field.

If you want to get a PhD just to have the PhD and you can afford it, by all means. If you love the study and want to continue studying, go ahead.

Just do not expect to find anything resembling full time employment in this field anytime soon. As zharkov pointed out, this is not just because of your age (but, to put it bluntly, this is not going to help. No, it's not legal, but age discrimination happens). The chance of anyone at any age finding a job in a languages field are simply minute.

You might be able to find some adjunct work (part-time, temporary, poorly paid work) but an assistant professorship or the like is going to be difficult to the point of virtually impossible.

And as vox pointed out, you connections and family are not relevant, and it probably only hurts you to mention things like this since it makes you come across as exceptionally nepotistic.

[exlier]

Sorry, I suppose my English is not as good as my language.

When I mentioned my family, I meant to reflect the command of my language and literature, which is significantly better than even people who are full time professors at Harvard and Stanford. Many of them come from backgrounds that do not even speak the pure form of our language. And I have seen their work. I respect them very much for having achieved what they have, but it is clear that getting a position in these top schools involves more than just literary talent.

Please do not mistake this for arrogance, or "nepotism" which I had to look up in the dictionary, this is simply my feedback as a regular critic.

I guess that is life. The world is not "fair". Or may be these people just tried harder and were more focused in their goals. I am sure the more talented literature experts from my country do not think about Harvard or Stanford, let alone apply to them.

Anyway, I do not care about a "tenure track" or being a professor. I will be more than content to be a lecturer at a semi-advanced level and have the access to a good library (which I know many good schools have) to continue my own contributions to literature. In the US, or in Canada, or in some other places such as Germany or Australia where some universities do offer positions about my language. "Lecturer" is good enough. Tenure is not what I am after.

[zharkov]

Anyway, I do not care about a "tenure track" or being a professor. I will be more than content to be a lecturer at a semi-advanced level and have the access to a good library (which I know many good schools have) to continue my own contributions to literature. In the US, or in Canada, or in some other places such as Germany or Australia where some universities do offer positions about my language. "Lecturer" is good enough. Tenure is not what I am after.

Most universities have two major classes of faculty, tenure track and adjuncts.  There are few jobs in between as "semi advanced" levels.

If you are able to get an adjunct job, it probably means teaching Elbonian 101 for the rest of your life as a general education course to freshmen.  You probably won't teach the upper level courses or graduate courses, since the tenure track faculty teach those.  And in a large city, an adjunct may teach just one or two courses, and get just $2000, maybe $3000 per course.  And in smaller cities and smaller schools, the pay may be just $1500 per course.

And before you make any plans, you need to educate yourself on the US immigration and visa rules.  In theory, work visas (H1Bs) are given to people in professions where it is hard to find a qualified US citizen or permanent resident.  Strictly speaking, that is not the case in foreign languages or any other humanities discipline.
  

[imawakenow]

And before you make any plans, you need to educate yourself on the US immigration and visa rules.  In theory, work visas (H1Bs) are given to people in professions where it is hard to find a qualified US citizen or permanent resident.  Strictly speaking, that is not the case in foreign languages or any other humanities discipline.
  

You are also likely to have a very hard time making the case for a residency visa if you are only adjuncting, which by definition is part-time work (even though some people adunct full time for a living).

Anyway, to answer your (OP) original question: I do not think 50 is too old to pursue a Ph.D., and my guess is that you could find a program to pursue your research interests.

However, given that you don't want to pursue a tenure-track position and given the oversupply of humanities Ph.D. graduates in the U.S., I'm not sure why you would want to do it.

[ideagirl]

I do not care about a "tenure track" or being a professor. I will be more than content to be a lecturer at a semi-advanced level and have the access to a good library (which I know many good schools have) to continue my own contributions to literature. In the US, or in Canada, or in some other places such as Germany or Australia where some universities do offer positions about my language.

If you don't care where you work after the Ph.D., then why come to the US? You can get a Ph.D. for less money elsewhere, and if you get your Ph.D. in Europe it is far easier to find a job in Europe than it is if you get your Ph.D. in the US. Do places like Oxford and Cambridge, or INALCO in Paris, offer doctorates in your language? Why not go there?

And like everyone else here has pointed out, language jobs are very hard to find in the US. Most likely, if you got a job at all, it would be as an adjunct--that is not the same as a lecturer; there's no stability in it, and no prestige, and no benefits, etc.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

When I mentioned my family, I meant to reflect the command of my language and literature, which is significantly better than even people who are full time professors at Harvard and Stanford....
Please do not mistake this for arrogance

Oh, I don't think we need to worry about making a mistake here. - DvF

[macaroon]

So you probably are hearing correctly that your age won't be too much of a factor in graduate school admissions.  Discrimination on the basis of age here is illegal in the United States, and that says something about our culture.  It is one of the reasons that I am really proud to be an American.

However, it seems that you have some unrealistic ideas about the job market.  Good that you came to these fora for a reality check!  Unrealistic goals will hurt your chances for admission.  As will the very unrealistic idea that somehow you will be out of an elite program with a Ph.D. in 3 years.  (Why is that, again?)

If you are not a US citizen, it will be extraordinarily difficult for you to obtain a visa to work as an adjunct.  It's not unheard of, but I wouldn't make this part of your plan.

[hobbit]

I entered a graduate program in my mid-40's and enjoyed the experience greatly until I began to explore the job market.

My situation is a little different because my company (and field) was downsized and our outsource/placement office recommended retraining. A PhD program was one of several options, but one where I received the most glowing reports about job possibilities. I wish I had researched them more than relying on the university reports, because the reality was quite different. Competition is very intense and jobs are quite rare in my chosen field. In that respect, our situations may be similar.

Although no one would admit it, I believe firmly that my age has played a role in my failure to find a job. My teaching evaluations are good, I have some publications, and I apply for jobs for which I meet criteria, at least on paper. But there is a subjective element to hiring - maybe it's a concern that students relate better to younger faculty, or any number of intangibles.  It's not specifically job discrimination but more a matter of fit within the department and with the student body.

If you truly love your field and enjoy the intellectual discipline of pursuing doctoral work, by all means, go for it. But go for it with eyes wide open about the limited options at the end of the road. And above all, don't go into debt.

[larryc]

I think you should be looking at alternative paths to what you want--which seems to be an academic environment and some teaching. You say you are from a line of poets, are you a published poet yourself? If so perhaps you could get some kind of visiting gig at an American university.

Considering the time it will take to earn a PhD (6++ years, no matter what you think now) and the dismal job market for your field, I don't think a PhD is the right path for you.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

If so perhaps you could get some kind of visiting gig at an American university.

I am no employment expert, but surely the job market for itinerant poets is even bleaker than that for humanities PhDs? - DvF