next »

[toothpaste]

Hi all

I'm a new program director.  My program is one where there's a lot of contact with applicants as part of the process of recruiting anyone who is qualified into our classes. Many are non traditional students.  I've taught many of them over the past several years and have had no problems, even when I was a generation younger than my students.

One of our new applicants is loud and pushy attorney with a corporate background. He's had a devil of a time figuring out how to apply, register, getting ahold of readings, etc., because it's all online and very different from how it was back in the day.  I've been copied on many emails from him complaining about what terrible "customer service" my U is offering, and how we are driving away students.  So far he's been dealing with my staff.

But, unusually for me, I'm dreading the day he walks through my door and starts lecturing me on this topic too.  Of course, it's possible he won't dare treat me the way he treats the staff (one of whom has a PhD).  But I'm already tired of him and I've never met the man.

Help me think of what to say to him, oh wise forumites.

[zharkov]

I would tell him that, although many people thrive in online classes, it is not for everyone, and maybe he would be better off with a more traditional program.

Don't let a single demanding "customer" suck up your time and energy, and that of your department.

[toothpaste]

I would tell him that, although many people thrive in online classes, it is not for everyone, and maybe he would be better off with a more traditional program.

Don't let a single demanding "customer" suck up your time and energy, and that of your department.

Just to clarify, it's not the classes themselves that are online--it's the registration, the readings, etc.  Classes actually meet in person, thank goodness.

[psychprof]

Is it too late to not admit him to your program?

You'll run into students like this from time to time, and I don't know that there is a perfect way to deal with them. But, here are a couple of ideas:
1. Remember that you have the power in the situation. The students who are 'pushy' lawyers are almost always more bluff than bite. I think you listen for a bit, focus them, and then let them move on.

2. Don't let them harangue your staff. Either the staff have to set some limits with him or you have to do it for them. You have to call him in and tell him that you understand that he has lots of complaints, but tell him that this is a university and that there are different ways to deal with these things than in a "law-centered" setting. So, if he has a problem he can share it without having to make so strong a case. And, no name calling.

3. Don't know what your discipline is, but too much of this in my discipline results in "counseling" them out of the program. So, before that, you have a discussion (similar to number 2) about how important it is to your field that people can work with others. Again, I try to "normalize" it by saying that different fields have different methods for relating to one another and the legal oriented one doesn't work here.

4. Once again, don't be afraid of him. Stay cool, set limits, don't fall for the bait, and do what you do with everyone else.

Good luck!

[larryc]

If someone is abusing your staff it is your job to get in their face and make them stop.

"Hi, John, good to finally meet you. I'll be glad to help you register. But first I want to talk to you about the behavior appropriate to this program..."

[marlborough]

This guy has a raging case of insecurity--he's used to being a big bean and now he's on unfamiliar ground without any crutches (I assume he has a secretary who does all the computer stuff in his law office and he's without a clue).  Instead of asking for help, he lashes out because it is clearly your fault he is out of date and unable to get with the program.

I'm willing to bet that's he perfectly willing to treat you exactly as he has your staff (after all, he's from the real world), so it would make a lot of sense for you to think through in advance some no-nonsense way to explain that he needs to ask for help or get a computer tutorial or spend two hours in a campus computer lab rather than bash your staff. 

If you're confident enough, you can smile and say "our system was designed for students who are more familiar with online forms than paper ones, so it doesn't always make sense to applicants who have been out in their own professions.  I'm sure someone of your investigative and critical thinking background will have no problem once you get used to our online processes."   It kind of helps to be southern, or Minnesota passive-aggressive to say this, so in aid, you can be thinking "why don't you go sign up at Old Fart U, where secretaries will print things out for you and bring you martinis, jackass?" 

I really like non-traditional students who can adapt and learn, even when it is uncomfortable and the situation asks them to master unfamiliar things.  In those cases, I can try to set them up with discreet help and soft sell it.  Then there are people who don't want to even try and are nasty about it.  There may be hope for him, or there might not.

[zharkov]

Let me just add something to the above postings and much good advice.

When someone complains about X, it is often not really about X at all.  It is often some kind of resistance about being there is the first place, or perhaps fear, anxiety, insecurity, and such.

I would not be surprised that the guy is conflicted about being in the program, probably has a hard time even admitting it to himself, but takes out this resistance via this critical behavior.

[mdwlark]

I don't know if this applies to you, but one of the prerequisites for me in learning how to handle this type of person was that I had to give up the need to be nice.  Objectively, someone observing me would say I'm still nice and probably wouldn't notice much of a change in my style or behavior from before.  It was an internal change in my perspective and attitude.  Outwardly the change probably appears to be minor.  Internally it was huge and the effects were huge.  It has taken me most of a lifetime and a lot of abuse to get to this point.  You need to protect yourself and your staff by setting firm limits, and in a way, you are protecting the jerk from himself.  Several posters have suggested what his motives and feelings may be.  That is useful information only if it helps you act more the way you want to act in this situation, otherwise it is unhelpful.  Bottom line is you don't care if he is insecure or scared underneath the bluster, you don't care if he feels angry, and you don't care how he reacts to you after.  You just care how he treats you and your staff and that is non-negotiable.  That is what I mean by giving up being nice.  He is not a lawyer here.  He is a student. You won't need to meet his bluster with an equal force.  Speak softly and state what you expect reasonably.  Your only big stick is your confidence.  You will probably be surprised how quickly he backs down.  He is not used to anyone setting limits with him.     

[ideagirl]

1. Remember that you have the power in the situation. The students who are 'pushy' lawyers are almost always more bluff than bite. I think you listen for a bit, focus them, and then let them move on.

Yes. I am a pushy lawyer myself, and I concur. Listen, focus, perhaps explain that online XYZ is now the norm in schools nationwide. There are a LOT of older lawyers who don't even know how to type--their secretaries do it for them; and when I say "older" I'm including any lawyer over 40 who became a lawyer in their 20s--anyone who became a lawyer in the 1980s or very early 90s is likely to have developed the habit of never even dealing with a typewriter themselves, let alone a computer. Most of them are aware of their relative technical incompetence--if they're at big firms they've learned how to use Blackberries and how to type brief, not always literate emails, but that's it. So you may need to explain that this is THE NORM: it's not your university offering "bad customer service," it's your university doing what all universities do nowadays--put everything online.

[toothpaste]

Thank you, all. These are very helpful comments that I will be reading over several times.

Mdwlark's comments especially resonated with me, for a variety of reasons.  Since I've gotten tenure (and becoming a mother), I've been coming to the realization that there are lots of situations in which I'm called upon to be something other than nice (direct, true, disappointing, etc.).  How do you go about making this change?  It's clearly critical for me at this stage of life, but I have no idea how to make it happen.

[mdwlark]

I found it very helpful to rehearse the confrontation mentally ahead of time, imagining myself saying the words I would like to say.  I rehearse different versions including inappropriate ones (which I promise myself I won't actually do.)  The inappropriate rehearsals diffuse your anger, but be sure you rehearse appropriate ones too.  In the actual confrontation it all comes out differently, but the rehearsal pays off anyway.  Don't be alarmed when it comes out differently--the mental rehearsal is teaching you how to improvise and think on your feet, not how to give a prepared speech. 

If it helps, think of yourself as a patient adult having to explain what the rules are to an 8-year-old boy who doesn't get it.   That is what is happening, by the way. 

My most successful confrontations, unfortunately, have been when I have been so abused and when I found myself backed so far into the corner that I felt I had nothing to lose by speaking up, and I couldn't stand to live with myself afterward if I didn't speak up.  At that point, I truly didn't care if I were liked or not and I didn't care what followed.  I hope you don't get to the corner, but the best way to bluff is not to bluff.  Then again, if you can't not bluff, bluff.   

[anthroid]

Thank you, all. These are very helpful comments that I will be reading over several times.

Mdwlark's comments especially resonated with me, for a variety of reasons.  Since I've gotten tenure (and becoming a mother), I've been coming to the realization that there are lots of situations in which I'm called upon to be something other than nice (direct, true, disappointing, etc.).  How do you go about making this change?  It's clearly critical for me at this stage of life, but I have no idea how to make it happen.

It can be very, very hard.  I'm not a mother, but in becoming a chair I've had to say no very, very often and I've had to be "mean" to students and, sometimes, faculty members.  I guess I take the attitude that I was chosen to be chair (from the outside) for some very good reasons, and that I am as smart as anyone else, and that I'm getting paid extra to do what other people need for me to do--to enforce standards, to speak up (nicely but firmly), to say no, to deal with unhappy people.  So I have to swallow hard and say no or be "mean" knowing that I'm right.  It does get easier with time, believe me, as you begin to trust in your skills and judgment, but this non-traditional student you describe seems to me to be every bit as much of a snowflake as some of our young 'uns, and it may help to think of him in this way.  I would suggest, though, that you treat him with patience and good humor, though with firmness and high standards.

At the same time, I think Zharkov is exactly right, as he is so often:

Let me just add something to the above postings and much good advice.

When someone complains about X, it is often not really about X at all.  It is often some kind of resistance about being there is the first place, or perhaps fear, anxiety, insecurity, and such.

I would not be surprised that the guy is conflicted about being in the program, probably has a hard time even admitting it to himself, but takes out this resistance via this critical behavior.

[unstuck]

C.K. Gunsalus' book "The College Administrator's Survival Guide" has excellent advice in areas like this!  It's easy to read and gives particular examples that really let you see yourself in that situation.  I highly recommend it.

[toothpaste]

C.K. Gunsalus' book "The College Administrator's Survival Guide" has excellent advice in areas like this!  It's easy to read and gives particular examples that really let you see yourself in that situation.  I highly recommend it.

Hey, thanks!  My library has this book.

[toothpaste]

I found out that this student took out some of his frustration by cursing at and  hanging up on the student worker in my office.  I've summoned him for a meeting. No more sweetness for me!