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[infopri]

I have yet to see him hold the baby. 

He held the baby on stage last night after Palin's speech.

McCain moved in the direction so it seemed he would give the baby a kiss. I think he missed or decided against it. It was a strange movement.

Yes, I saw Palin's husband hold the baby last night, too.  As for McCain, he did rub the baby's head at one point.

I have to say that I was impressed by Palin last night.  I didn't like her, but I thought she did a very good job, and I'm finally beginning to understand why McCain picked her.  And (to get back on topic), Giuliani (and no fan of his am I) said something right on target.  He pointed out that many people were asking whether Palin could afford to take time away from her family, especially her four-month-old son, in order to do a good job as VP.  "How dare they?" Giuliani asked.  "How dare they ask that question--when they would never ask that about a man?

He's right.  Our parenting standards are undeniably gender-biased.

Except Palin's role as a mother is what she is using to appeal to voters.   If she hadn't, I'd say we should keep our opinions on her personal life, and our gender biases, to ourselves.  She self-describes herself as just a PTA / Hockey Mom come to represent us!  Hooray!  Well, I think she's doing a crappy job as a Mom, and I think she's going to do a crappy job as VP.  I'm praying to everyone from Allah to Zeus that McCain doesn't die on us. 

Your argument implies that she can't be a good mother if she's running for VP, and that therefore she's a hypocrite for running for VP on the appeal of being a good mother.  I don't accept that.

First, let me reiterate that I don't like Palin's politics and I have no plans to vote for her or McCain.  That said, I do think she did a superb job last night giving her speech.  I can appreciate the talents of my opponents.  :)

But I dislike her for her politics, not her parental decisions.  I don't see any inconsistency between having a newborn and running for public office--for a man or a woman.  The only reaction I have at all in fact is that, frankly, I'm not that interested in any political candidate's parental status, man or woman; to me, it has no more meaning than "I like cooking and gardening."  What I was getting at in my prior comment was simply that Giuliani's observation is absolutely correct, that we do judge the "appropriateness" of the candidates differently, based on gender--and the replies to my post here prove it.

And to think, it took a Republican to say it.

On preview:  Thanks, gennidad, for saving me from having to make the same point.

[inthelab]

In this you are mistaking parenting with child bearing.  There is a difference.  There is a definate imbalance in child bearing but there does not have to be an imbalance in parenting which actually takes place after the child gets here. 

Not really.  After childbirth, I needed time off from work to recuperate; he didn't need to recuperate from childbirth.  After that time, we started sharing the rearing.
First Dude is up on the North Slope, a bit a far from Wasilla.

[sikora]

I remember going to the movies to see Pulp Fiction. In the seats behind me were families who brought little children. At one point, two of the children(maybe 4 and 5 years old) started crying and begging to go. I think someone was shooting someone's brains out on the screen. The kids kept saying, "please can we go?" Mom and Dad said no, the movie is not over and we want to see it.
They were all perfectly comfortable with their little kids sitting through that violence, language, sex, etc.

That was a place I felt children shouldn't be. I was quite disturbed by their crying on many levels.

Weren't they also breaking the law? I don't know what the classification was in the US, but in the UK it was 18 years and over. In the UK they would have almost certainly been turned away at the doors.

I don't know about the UK, but in the U.S. the movie rating system is not a matter of law, as far as I know.  The rating system itself is voluntary (a successful gambit by the film industry decades ago to avoid regulation), and the admission guidelines are enforced by the theaters, not the government.  BTW, I believe Pulp Fiction was rated R here, which means that children under 17 (not 18) aren't admitted without a parent. 

When I was young, the only movies kids (under 18) just couldn't get into at all were rated X.  Sometime in the 1980s (give or take, can't really remember), this rating was changed to NC-17, which means no children under 17, with or without parents.  It's like X except for the age (17 instead of 18) and, where X pretty much meant explicit sex, NC-17 could mean too much/intense adult content of any kind.

Thanks for that, infopri. I'm a little shocked that there are no checks on young children watching violent films. To my knowledge, it's a matter of law here, and cinemas will ask for ID.

This actually happened to me as a child, when my father forced me at age 10, and my siblings, to sit through Ulzana's Raid.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxQy2TA_ccY

I mentioned this in another thread.  

[prof_mom]

There doesn't have to be a difference after the baby is born and nursing is done. In fact, there shouldn't be a difference in level of responsibility after that point. The argument being made is that people PERCEIVE a difference in the level of responsibility. Men get kudos for doing things that women are expected to do for their children.

Why do people say it is "nice" for my husband to "babysit" the children when I am out? Why is it so amazing that he takes them to daycare?  They are his children too!

Why do our families believe someone needs to come help him when I leave town for a conference? Why has no one ever offered to help me when he travels? The perception is that I can handle it and he cannot.

The standards for being a good mother are very different from those for good fathers. Fathers just need to show up. Mothers need to do it all and look good while doing it.

Having said all that, I do not think it is right for any parent to take on a high responsibility job that takes hu out of the home with young children (particularly a newborn) at home. This parent decided to bring this child into the world and that child deserves the attention of both parents.

I know a guy who works 2 hours from home. He leaves before his kids get up and comes home when they are in bed. He also works weekends. The family could move closer to his job because the mother does not work, but he likes living in that neighborhood. I don't think that is fair to the children. I would absolutely say the same thing about the mother.

Having said that, this might not influence the person's performance at work and should not influence people's consideration of an applicant for a job. I am simply saying they might be on my bad parent list.

[robert_smithson]

Go ahead and criticize Palin's experience, judgement, conservative social policies, etc., but it is ridiculous to assert that she is not qualified to be VP because of her role as a mother.  I am THRILLED that a woman is in this race and that I can have the opportunity to vote against her just like I would vote against any man with a similarly socially conservative agenda.

I agree with this. My criticism earlier was more to whether she has sound judgment--who knows anything about her? But the kids stuff is something they should be expected to work out, end of story.

Not only that, this "Joe Biden is going to have to avoid looking like a bully..." business-- oh, whatever. It's the Vice Presidency. Time to put on the big girl pants!

[infopri]

There doesn't have to be a difference after the baby is born and nursing is done. In fact, there shouldn't be a difference in level of responsibility after that point. The argument being made is that people PERCEIVE a difference in the level of responsibility. Men get kudos for doing things that women are expected to do for their children.

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at, and what Giuliani was saying.  It's expected that men can leave a four-month-old to go to his big job as VP, but the standard is different for a woman.  Thanks, prof_mom.

BTW, my ex-BIL used to want points for "babysitting" his son (my nephew) when my sister was unavailable.  Even my very unliberated sister (a woman who would have been very happy as a 1950s housewife) learned to resent his attitude that he was doing her a big favor.

[prytania3]

Your argument implies that she can't be a good mother if she's running for VP, and that therefore she's a hypocrite for running for VP on the appeal of being a good mother.  I don't accept that.

The truth is that she probably isn't a very good mother if she's running for VP. Hell, I ran for school board and I ended up neglecting my kid, so I can only imagine running on a presidential ticket.

That said, probably men who are running for higher office are not very good fathers either, and probably those who hold high political positions are lousy fathers.

The problem is this: women are criticized for being lousy mothers; men are not criticized for being lousy fathers.

[gennidad]

Prof Mom, I am going to agree with you about this.  We are just now starting to break with the ideas of women raising the children and men working.  I am a stay-at-home dad so I may be a little close to the issue to be objective when I perceive someone belittling what I am doing.  I do however notice people who look at me funny when I take my daughter to the park to play or take her to the store with me.  I have had the cops called because I was sitting watching her play on the playground and the woman who called didn't see me with a woman.   Oh, I was a little peeved when the cops showed up and started harassing me and scared my daughter.  So much so that I had to leave before I went over and punched the b!tch out.  One reason I don't take her to the park anymore.  

[infopri]

That said, probably men who are running for higher office are not very good fathers either, and probably those who hold high political positions are lousy fathers.

The problem is this: women are criticized for being lousy mothers; men are not criticized for being lousy fathers.

Exactly.

[gennidad]

That said, probably men who are running for higher office are not very good fathers either, and probably those who hold high political positions are lousy fathers.

The problem is this: women are criticized for being lousy mothers; men are not criticized for being lousy fathers.

Exactly.

Anybody in that type of position will be a bad parent.  It is inherent with the job.  Briefings at ungodly hours, little to no time for personal/family issues, and intense media scrutiny.  No way would I want this type of position.  You would almost have to be a narcissist to want it.  Just my opinion.

[infopri]

Anybody in that type of position will be a bad parent.  It is inherent with the job.  Briefings at ungodly hours, little to no time for personal/family issues, and intense media scrutiny.  No way would I want this type of position.  You would almost have to be a narcissist to want it.  Just my opinion.

Well, of course, I wonder about anyone (including candidates I like) who wants that type of position, parent or not--but that's getting away from the thread's topic, I suppose.  ;-)

[gennidad]

Anybody in that type of position will be a bad parent.  It is inherent with the job.  Briefings at ungodly hours, little to no time for personal/family issues, and intense media scrutiny.  No way would I want this type of position.  You would almost have to be a narcissist to want it.  Just my opinion.

Well, of course, I wonder about anyone (including candidates I like) who wants that type of position, parent or not--but that's getting away from the thread's topic, I suppose.  ;-)

Not really, we can discuss narcissist parenting.

[language_geek1066]

Prof Mom, I am going to agree with you about this.  We are just now starting to break with the ideas of women raising the children and men working.  I am a stay-at-home dad so I may be a little close to the issue to be objective when I perceive someone belittling what I am doing.  I do however notice people who look at me funny when I take my daughter to the park to play or take her to the store with me.  I have had the cops called because I was sitting watching her play on the playground and the woman who called didn't see me with a woman.   Oh, I was a little peeved when the cops showed up and started harassing me and scared my daughter.  So much so that I had to leave before I went over and punched the b!tch out.  One reason I don't take her to the park anymore. 

Oh, man. That is just sad. I am so sorry to hear that.

I hope the attitude changes soon....mothers don't have a monopoly on nuturing.

[robert_smithson]

Prof Mom, I am going to agree with you about this.  We are just now starting to break with the ideas of women raising the children and men working.  I am a stay-at-home dad so I may be a little close to the issue to be objective when I perceive someone belittling what I am doing.  I do however notice people who look at me funny when I take my daughter to the park to play or take her to the store with me.  I have had the cops called because I was sitting watching her play on the playground and the woman who called didn't see me with a woman.   Oh, I was a little peeved when the cops showed up and started harassing me and scared my daughter.  So much so that I had to leave before I went over and punched the b!tch out.  One reason I don't take her to the park anymore.  

Yup. I feel for you, Gennidad. More men need to start acting like they actually want to spend time with their kids, so those of us who do won't be treated like criminals in public.

[infopri]

Anybody in that type of position will be a bad parent.  It is inherent with the job.  Briefings at ungodly hours, little to no time for personal/family issues, and intense media scrutiny.  No way would I want this type of position.  You would almost have to be a narcissist to want it.  Just my opinion.

Well, of course, I wonder about anyone (including candidates I like) who wants that type of position, parent or not--but that's getting away from the thread's topic, I suppose.  ;-)

Not really, we can discuss narcissist parenting.

Thanks, but no.  I had a ringside seat, growing up.  :(