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[macaroon]

Good luck with your in-laws, and congratulations!

You see, we are having a new baby, and little R is totally in love with the idea of having a little baby in the house. She knows that the baby will not be a playable friend for a long time, but that it will be funny looking and cute. She is already moving things around in her room to create some space for the newcomer, without any prompting on our side. And the in-laws already assume oh, she will be so disappointed and what a pity, and poor little R and so on.

... hmmm?  Are they not listening to R?  Is listening a problem with these folks?

My girls are 2 1/2 years apart, and we've never had jealousy issues.  Not on Day 1, and not now that they are 6 and 8.  My eldest was similar - she was excited about the arrival. 

[reener06]

Yeah, I agree with macaroon, this seems like their problem they are putting on little R. My in-laws are very worried about reenerette feeling neglected with new baby in house, and keep buying her things. BTW, the charm bracelet was nicely received, but mostly forgotten, and she doesn't wear it much. It'll likely mean more later on? and it's been a way for MIL to give her more things--charms now for St. Patrick's Day, the last day of school, etc. But I know MIL felt neglected (and she was, so rightly so) when her younger sister was born, and she was also in charge of raising that sister from a very young age--they are about 3 years apart. Now, reenerette helps, as a member of the family, but does not raise her brother. Anyway, my point is, as is often the case with my in-laws, this is more about them than me.

And I know the part of the thread you are referring to--it should be about 10 pages back. I found it not quite life-changing, but close. It made me rethink a lot of things, and I want to say it was llanfair that posted it? I want to thank whoever it was. I think it went a long way to our last visit being pleasant all around. They commented on that many times. I've become more open with spouse about wanting things to change and he is with me on that.

[rambling]

Thank you all for this. It gives me some strength; macaroon and reener, your stories help me feel grounded and not totally in la-la-land. It IS possible for little R to actually enjoy this new family member...

[alto_stratus]

2. I still cannot find that post by the wise forumite* who wrote that most of the time these issues are related to a dysfunctional couple dynamics. If any of you recall who it was or when, I'd be much grateful...

*There are many wise forumites on this thread. I just want to find that one specific post...

Is it this one?  http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,52072.msg2019897.html#msg2019897

[macaroon]

YBut I know MIL felt neglected (and she was, so rightly so) when her younger sister was born, and she was also in charge of raising that sister from a very young age--they are about 3 years apart. Now, reenerette helps, as a member of the family, but does not raise her brother. Anyway, my point is, as is often the case with my in-laws, this is more about them than me.

I think that this is definitely the case with my in-laws and my parents and how they treat my girls.  They are stuck in their old sibling dramas in absence of having any understanding of the dynamic in my own family.  It's not a major problem for us, but from time to time they tilt and windmills with the sibling rivalry. 

I can't help but think, though, that it is truly difficult to strike a balance between healthy sibling dynamics and having a child "in charge" of another child.  Where is the boundary here?  We are constantly having to remind our older child that she is NOT our younger child's parent, and that WE will take care of her little sister.  We know she feels responsible for her little sister, and I think that has a lot more to do with the childrens' personality than anything we're doing (or not doing) as parents.

Some of the behavior is great - on Sunday, we slept till 8AM, and when we found the children, the big one was reading the little one a Magic Treehouse book, and showing the little one which words were which.  This is a far cry from neglecting to feed the children and the oldest one having to prepare dinner for both.  But it okay to ask the big one to put toothpaste on the little one's toothbrush, or help the little one turn off the shower? 

[uragan]

YBut I know MIL felt neglected (and she was, so rightly so) when her younger sister was born, and she was also in charge of raising that sister from a very young age--they are about 3 years apart. Now, reenerette helps, as a member of the family, but does not raise her brother. Anyway, my point is, as is often the case with my in-laws, this is more about them than me.

I think that this is definitely the case with my in-laws and my parents and how they treat my girls.  They are stuck in their old sibling dramas in absence of having any understanding of the dynamic in my own family.  It's not a major problem for us, but from time to time they tilt and windmills with the sibling rivalry. 

I can't help but think, though, that it is truly difficult to strike a balance between healthy sibling dynamics and having a child "in charge" of another child.  Where is the boundary here?  We are constantly having to remind our older child that she is NOT our younger child's parent, and that WE will take care of her little sister.  We know she feels responsible for her little sister, and I think that has a lot more to do with the childrens' personality than anything we're doing (or not doing) as parents.

Some of the behavior is great - on Sunday, we slept till 8AM, and when we found the children, the big one was reading the little one a Magic Treehouse book, and showing the little one which words were which.  This is a far cry from neglecting to feed the children and the oldest one having to prepare dinner for both.  But it okay to ask the big one to put toothpaste on the little one's toothbrush, or help the little one turn off the shower? 

I know as a kid I had trouble with this line - it actually seems to be a common problem in my extended family. I remember a talk about how, as an older sibling, my job was to help with the fun things (like reading) and look out for the younger ones in general, but things like chores, getting ready, and "other boring stuff" were for adults, not me.

[rambling]

2. I still cannot find that post by the wise forumite* who wrote that most of the time these issues are related to a dysfunctional couple dynamics. If any of you recall who it was or when, I'd be much grateful...

*There are many wise forumites on this thread. I just want to find that one specific post...

Is it this one?  http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,52072.msg2019897.html#msg2019897

YES, this was the one I meant to find. Thank you! I am now wondering if it would be worth it to suggest mr. R to take a look at it...

[llanfair]

2. I still cannot find that post by the wise forumite* who wrote that most of the time these issues are related to a dysfunctional couple dynamics. If any of you recall who it was or when, I'd be much grateful...

*There are many wise forumites on this thread. I just want to find that one specific post...

Is it this one?  http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,52072.msg2019897.html#msg2019897

YES, this was the one I meant to find. Thank you! I am now wondering if it would be worth it to suggest mr. R to take a look at it...

Good sleuthing, Alto_Stratus! I knew it wasn't mine, but I couldn't think whose it really was.

And Rambling, good luck and congratulations on the baby!

[alto_stratus]

[I am now wondering if it would be worth it to suggest mr. R to take a look at it...

If I were you, I would translate it for him, calmly explaining your perspective about the current situation, and what you think your options are for managing the in-laws to help minimize damaging behaviors.  Make sure he knows it's a discussion and a sharing of perspectives, and not a fault-finding mission--you want to get his perspective, too.  You may want to schedule the discussion for a time when neither of you is stressed/tired.

Unlike the SO who refuses to get involved at all, it seems like your SO has tried but failed.  He reared his head up, and his mother clocked him and told him to mind his place.  I think your SO needs your support--support in understanding that setting boundaries does not make him a bad son, that is is perfectly appropriate to set boundaries when behavior is causing problems, and that someone who loves and respects you wants you to be happy (and doesn't lash out at you because you try to tell them what will keep things happy and peaceful for everyone).  It is so common for a parent to blame their son/daughter's spouse whenever their kid does anything they don't approve of, but it's not fair.  You two have a life together now, and he is an adult, and a good relationship for all is built on your MIL respecting that.  It may require some compromise on your part, especially on the little things.  Some people can't be changed, and some annoyances can be ignored with practice.  I hope you can find some common ground on this.  And keep in mind that sometimes these transitions take time and plenty of patience and emotional fortitude, especially on the part of you and your SO.

[hipgeek]

2. I still cannot find that post by the wise forumite* who wrote that most of the time these issues are related to a dysfunctional couple dynamics. If any of you recall who it was or when, I'd be much grateful...

*There are many wise forumites on this thread. I just want to find that one specific post...

Is it this one?  http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,52072.msg2019897.html#msg2019897

YES, this was the one I meant to find. Thank you! I am now wondering if it would be worth it to suggest mr. R to take a look at it...

Congrats, Rambling!  And thank you, thank you, thank you, Alto_Stratus, for finding that message!

[hungry_ghost]

Unlike the SO who refuses to get involved at all, it seems like your SO has tried but failed.  He reared his head up, and his mother clocked him and told him to mind his place. 
  [. . . ]
It may require some compromise on your part, especially on the little things.  Some people can't be changed, and some annoyances can be ignored with practice.

I agree with all of this, but I only quoted what I think are the two most important parts:
First, Mr Rambling tried, and he should get a lot of credit for that first step, regardless of the outcome. He didn't completely refuse to get involved. What Mr Rambling did (stood up to his mother, and in front of others to boot!) is HUGE. So yeah, she stomped on him and he backed down, but still, he did try, and he may need to hear how much this meant to you. And it should mean a lot. Some people are brought up from childhood to never ever contradict or argue with their parents. It is deeply ingrained. For someone like that, telling his parents (even very gently) "that behavior bothers me/my spouse" is incredibly difficult. He needs to hear, "Thank you, I know this was very hard!" to give him courage to do it again. He doesn't need to hear "You tried and failed"--another smackdown.

Second, yes, you may need to compromise on some things. When you ask Mr Rambling to talk to his parents, you are actually asking him to make a change that is in some ways as big as what you're asking from the PILs (parents-in-law). If there are lesser annoyances, can you let those slide?
 
Finally:

I finally gave my SO the ultimatum. Little R is not allowed to spend unsupervised time with the in-laws until or unless they change their behavior.

 
Again, I am quoting only a short piece, but somehow the connection needs to be made clear: You gave your SO the ultimatum, but it is contingent on the PILs' behavior, which he can't really control. So there are two steps to your ultimatum: he talks to them or not, and they change or not.

Do you think an ultimatum is the best approach here? I'm asking, because sometimes this is effective but it can also backfire badly. Is this what you want him to tell his parents, meaning, do you want him to give them an ultimatum? Do you think he even can do this right now? Some people simply cannot have that kind of conversation with their parents. If he gave them an ultimatum, do you think it would be effective?

Would it be enough if he just said, "this kind of talk makes us [united front] uncomfortable and we would like you to stop," and then quietly spend less time with them if they don't. Or even, "we're spending less time with you because we asked you to stop ABC, and you decided not to."  What is a reasonable expectation, meaning, what is Mr Rambling capable of doing? MrHungry is extremely non-confrontational and he doesn't do ultimatums, but if he says something gently and gets ignored, he notices and becomes unhappy, and is more likely to speak up again if the problem continues. I wonder if Mr Rambling might be the same way. And, what way of communicating does Mr Rambling think would be most effective with his parents and what does he feel able to do?

Finally, honestly, what do you want? Do you want your PILs to change some specific (if major) things? Or do you actually want them to either transform themselves into entierly different people, or else buy one-way tickets to Antarctica (assuming you're in the Northern hemisphere) and never bother you or negatively influence your child again? If you're thinking "Antarctica sounds good," I have to tell you, I've had those feelings too, and that's not a healthy mindset. This will be easier if you can find a few things to like (or even love) and enjoy about your PILs. I remember feeling very intense dislike, even loathing, for my MIL, many years ago. That's wrong. She's my husband's mother. If you feel that way, you have to get over it or this isn't going to get better. (Note: I'm speaking as someone who has basically decent PILs. This advice doesn't apply if your PILs are child abusers, serial killers, etc.)

Anyhow, just some thoughts, maybe or maybe not applicable to your situation.

Thank you for your nice comments about my earlier post. Reading those made for a good end to a difficult week. Now I am going to call my MIL and wish her happy birthday!

[rambling]

Thank you everyone, yet again. alto_stratus, you are right, and I read your comments carefully. And hungry_ghost, your comments are spot on.

My PILs as you say are not horrible people, they love little R and provide for her a safe and happy environment when she visits them (except of course they go completely nuts about gifts though we talked to them about it, and also often they disregard our parenting choices; besides the constant badgering, there is the constant ignoring of our wishes in terms of what gifts she should NOT receive, what foods she should NOT be given, etc.)

I do think a lot of the demonizing that was happening was related to their unchanging ways but also to my constant sense of having to stand alone with regard to all of this... I have let too many "little" things slide in the past three years, and I do think that I did need to make a firm stand. And this made a difference. In these last couple days a lot has happened. Mr. R did communicate with his parents, in a way which left no ambiguity about the big picture in terms of what was going on, why I was upset, why they were seeing little R a lot less. And I know this was awfully hard for him, not only because he is not raised to talk with his parents about things like that, but more generally he has trouble confronting things, and even making decisions if they mean he will have to make someone unhappy. He waffles a lot during business meetings even, because he does not want to commit to a position which may make some uncomfortable...

Honestly I often do feel Antarctica sounds good. But I also do know that is because of the current situation. As I said a couple times before on this thread, they were wonderful before little R came along, and I still cannot fathom how things have changed so immensely. I was one of those smug pregnant women who was comfortable knowing that her in-laws would be wonderful (because they had always been) and that we would be one big happy family.

In the recent years, there have been several fights between me and mr. R where his conclusion was that I hated his parents, and I always had to say, no I don't, I know they are reasonably good people and they love you and little R, but don't you see what they are doing to me and to us? Though I shall add that in these last few months there have been instances which could very easily (even when I am calm and trying to think objectively about things) be interpreted in much less favorable ways, and I have slowly started losing my sense that they are reasonably good people, but rather notice that they are often selfish and disrespectful. And I do think these are character flaws that will not change by anyone at this stage of their lives, but I can try and minimize their effects on my family's life... (And by no means am I implying that I am a perfect human being, I am not, but I still have a right to be bothered by others' selfishness and disrespect toward me and my family.)

All in all, I still come back to your original point, that if the boundaries are an issue, it is the couple who has to be firm about them, not one or the other in the team. And if the couple is not a team about these issues, I have unfortunately witnessed in my close family how things can escalate and eventually lead to divorce. I needed to be firm and mr. R needed to do something about the situation. And at this point he is quite happy to know that I am grateful for and proud of what he has done.

But I do not think the whole situation is done and dealt with. Their response has been basically that if we want space they will give it to us. That was not what we asked for. I actually think this response is kind of passive aggressive, again not saying anything about understanding what went wrong, but that since we are oh so offended, they will keep their distance for a while and then hope that things go back to normal. But to me, there is still definite progress, in that mr. R without doubt stood up and was firm. And I do expect that he will be more vigilant as we move forward.

[llanfair]

Good for Mr R, and hugs and good wishes to you, Rambling.  This may yet work out better than you expect, because the ice has been broken.

[macaroon]

My PILs as you say are not horrible people, they love little R and provide for her a safe and happy environment when she visits them (except of course they go completely nuts about gifts though we talked to them about it, and also often they disregard our parenting choices; besides the constant badgering, there is the constant ignoring of our wishes in terms of what gifts she should NOT receive, what foods she should NOT be given, etc.)

Okay - my parents are substance abusers, and can be physically abusive (which is why my daughters aren't left alone with them).  But they have nonetheless been wonderful grandparents...

And I have to say, on some occasions, my mother was right about the gifts and I was wrong.  With the gifts and food, you have to ask yourself - is it dangerous?  If it's not dangerous, just let it go.  Hold your ground on jelly beans for an infant, but let the grandparents give them twizzlers and ice cream for dinner once a year. 

And, someday, you might win big like I did.  I've told this story upthread somewhere, I'm sure of it. 

One year, we were visiting my parents, and my mom asked me if the girls would like Froot Loops Cereal Straws.
http://www.theimpulsivebuy.com/wordpress/2007/06/24/froot-loops-cereal-straws/
I wanna say the girls were 3 and 5 - somewhere around that age.  I told my mother I had no idea, since we'd never fed them froot loops.  But she was excited about them.  My girls declared the cereal straws to be "nasty".  My mother tried to get me to eat them to show the girls that they were good, but I told her it was up to her to eat the damn cereal straw. 

She had also purchased marcona almonds, kalamata olives, and stinky cheese for the adults.  We kept going on day trips, and packing snacks.  (Grapes, cut mango! stinky cheese, the almonds).  My mom kept packing these cereal straws, and trying to offer them to the girls in public.  And the girls kept saying, IN PUBLIC, "No way grandma!  Are there any more blood oranges?"  My mom had to eat the cereal straws in public. 

[marigolds]

My PILs as you say are not horrible people, they love little R and provide for her a safe and happy environment when she visits them (except of course they go completely nuts about gifts though we talked to them about it, and also often they disregard our parenting choices; besides the constant badgering, there is the constant ignoring of our wishes in terms of what gifts she should NOT receive, what foods she should NOT be given, etc.)

Okay - my parents are substance abusers, and can be physically abusive (which is why my daughters aren't left alone with them).  But they have nonetheless been wonderful grandparents...

And I have to say, on some occasions, my mother was right about the gifts and I was wrong.  With the gifts and food, you have to ask yourself - is it dangerous?  If it's not dangerous, just let it go.  Hold your ground on jelly beans for an infant, but let the grandparents give them twizzlers and ice cream for dinner once a year. 
 

This is my position too.  Some of my best memories of my grandmother is being allowed to eat gross sugary cereal at her house, or drinking real Coca-Cola.  Grandparents are supposed to spoil kids a bit, I think, and I'm OK with that within the realm of safety (obviously, no allergens or choking hazards or things that make the kid puke--unless it's on grandma to clean up the barf, of course, in which case, have at you!)