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Author Topic: Gone, and Being Forgotten  (Read 4327 times)
takapa
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 02:51:28 PM »

I get what you are saying in a number of ways.  The people who do not consider your research in the library "research" and all.  I'm certainly no expert in this, but I think those MFT folks would have something to say here that would be of relevance.  They have this whole thing of Narrative MFT (and hermeneutics) and some where in there you would find some common ground.  As a social scientist, I would get some of the same looks from bench scientists (many of whom would roll their eyes at "social" science).
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litcrittr82
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 03:05:19 PM »

charlie and takapa, both very thoughtful responses that reminded me of something else, very important:

Literary scholars have much to learn from a good deal of positivist work, in no trivial way.  Some lit. people want to preserve and find an odd, pseudo-use value in literary 'uselessness' (see Stanley Fish), and others are trying actively to transform lit. studies into a pseudo-social science.  I'm not sure either works for me; but, given my multidisciplinary background, I see great potential in interdisciplinary work.  For this reason, I'm actually, in the end, okay with reading Freud in English departments and not in psych departments, etc.  And relish the thought of where my field might go with import from other disciplines, so long as we're operating and collaborating with mutual respect.
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trentsands
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 08:57:30 PM »

It seems to me that the usefulness of studying someone like Freud is purely a matter of cultural influence.  He is not very useful to Psychology anymore. (One should keep in mind, of course, that he was deemed a "psychiatrist," and the "father of psychology" is considered to be Wilhelm Wundt--at least it was in my intro to psych class in college.)  On the other hand, Freud is fundemental to much of popular culture's understanding of the mind and how it works.  Both his language (from Id, Ego, and Superego to notions of dream interpretation) and the way in which he structured human relationships has become part of the Western World's conception of how people work. This is why he is more useful to cultural studies and literature, particularly for historicists in these fields.  It is because he was an influential cultural figure and a reference point for how the culture perceives itself.  Freud's concepts may no longer be considered valid (I certainly don't consider them valid), but people of the past and of the present perceive themselves and others using the constructs Freud created, and this has influenced the literature and artwork produced in the Western World.

It also occurs to me that Freud is less valid for the human sciences because his work now read more like philosophy or literary theory.  In terms of literary theory, he seems to provide a useful perspective because, in effect, that is what he was doing to a great degree.  Concepts like the Oedipal complex, developed as much from Greek mythology as it is using Greek mythology as a metaphor for the human mind, becomes a commentary on greek mythology.  His "Interpreation of Dreams" becomes useful as a method for approaching literature because it is, indeed, a method for analyzing a creative human product.  His writings about the "Uncanny" as well as the Old Testament is most purely literary criticism.

Of course, as some have alluded above, Freud isn't really considered all that valid in the study of literature either, except with special qualifications.
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"In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo."
-- T.S. Eliot
graemeforbes
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Posts: 1


« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2008, 03:45:03 PM »

Only just came across Jacoby's article. Groan! More sweeping generalizations about philosophy from a non-philosopher. Why do the Chronicle editors publish this dilettantish stuff?  Jacoby's complaint is, not that philosophy has stopped studying its past (it still "prizes the study of its past" he correctly says, got that right anyway), not even that it has stopped studying its nineteenth century past, but that it has stopped studying a particular specific thinker, Hegel, and maybe he'd extend the complaint to other progenitors of what's nowadays called "continental philosophy" (Kierkegaard and Nietzsche get mentioned, tho' my impression is that they are still widely studied in some detail, if not in courses devoted entirely to them). Well yes, to the mainstream, Hegel and some others are pretty marginal. But exactly how does the marginalization -- well-deserved, to many minds -- of a specific few writers convict the discipline of a "flight from history"? Jacoby's a historian. He could probably find some nineteenth century historians who may have been big names in their time but are not much read any more by mainstream historians. Would this convict history of a flight from history?

Couple of other points. Jacoby quotes one John McCumber that in philosophy "senior editors dispense with peer review and... a few established professors select papers for the discipline's annual conferences" (I guess there has to be an implicit "all or nearly all" in front of "papers" in that last bit -- "one or two" wouldn't fire us up). Sounds to me like the sour grapes of someone with a big chip on his shoulder. I've done a lot of refereeing for top journals over the last twenty-odd years, and I cannot remember the last time I received a paper that wasn't prepared for blind review. As for the programs at conferences, come on, Jacoby, don't just quote someone else's girning as if it was gospel, go to the APA  website, **find out** how the program committees of the divisional meetings get selected (it's different for different divisions) and *ask yourself* if those processes are likely to enable "a few established professors" to determine the programs. Why this reluctance in a historian to consult the original documents?

According to Jacoby, there are "pressures which force - or tempt - big names such as Rorty and Nussbaum to quit philosophy". Better salaries, most likely. But unlike Jacoby, I did some source checking. There's nothing I can see on http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/nussbaum/ to suggest that Nussbaum has quit philosophy. She still reads it, writes it, teaches it, and has an appointment in a department of it.

As for Rorty and Jacoby's Rortian remark that "polishing philosophical eyeglasses is futile if they are rarely used to see", I am reminded of an occasion many years ago when I was reading an article by Rorty in (I think) the NYRB, full of the usual stuff about the irrelevance of mainstream philosophy. Elsewhere in the same issue Harvard University Press had taken out a rather self-serving  advertisement about a list made by East European intellectuals of the books they had  found the most inspiring and supportive of their resistance to Communist dictatorship (a lot were published by HUP). Strangely, there were exactly zero works by Rorty's avowed intellectual heroes on this list. Even more strangely, there was a significant number of works by philosophical eye-glass polishers on it. I recall "A Theory of Justice", "Law's Empire", one of Sen's philosophical works, and two or three others ("Anarchy, State and Utopia" was noticeable by its absence). This was all in the top ten or twenty.

I'd like to give more details about this ranking. But Jacoby, above all, will surely sympathize if I do not  take the time to seek out the original source.
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takapa
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Posts: 320


« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 07:01:40 AM »

Wow, Forbes, what a well written post!  First post and - wham - you hit it oh so well.
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