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[coug_girl]

I am interested in applying for a position as a department chair and/or dean outside of my current university.  I have been in my current position for ten years and I am promoted/tenured at the Associate Professor Level.  I do not have any formal academic administrative experience, but I have outside administrative experience in business.  I am wondering about giving up tenure to pursue an administrative position.  As a "newbie," is tenure in an administrative position out of the question?  I have a really great work ethic, but I am worried that politics could put me out of a job and on the street in a tough economy.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[notaprof]

If you can negotiate to have tenure as a faculty member in a new job, that would offer some protection as an administrator but I have never heard of tenure in any administrative position before, unless you are the spouse or a special friend of the president or something like that.

[dr_strangelove]

It's certainly possible to be hired into a chair position with tenure. It's what we do at my university, and I know people who have done it at other schools as well. I don't have any statistics on how common it is, however.

[anthroid]

I would insist on tenure, actually.  It's very hard to be an effective leader in the academic environment if you don't have tenure as a chair.  I'd be surprised if you were offered a chair's position without tenure.  Demand it or don't take the job.

Many dean positions also include a faculty appointment in the appropriate department, though not all do.  If it's possible to demand tenure for that, do so, but for me it's less of a deal-breaker than it would be for a chair's position. 

[coug_girl]

Some of the Chair positions in Business Management that I have looked into state that the position is tenure-track along with teaching responsibilities.  Is "demanding" tenure reasonable or should I just avoid those positions where tenure-track is stated up-front in the advertisements?  Since I am willing to move to most locations in the U.S., I can be somewhat flexible.  I am looking for public 2-or-4-year schools more focused on teaching and service than on research.  Would this make a difference in terms of obtaining tenure?  I keep hearing horror stories about administrators put out on the streets for a bad political move(s).  At my current institution, I am known as an innovative change agent (not always popular with the older faculty) and I know that the administrative road is paved with political banana peels.  I am new at this process (searching for an academic administrative position), and thus, I am working on networking and finding good mentors to try to reduce the risk.  Again, any advice is appreciated.

[zharkov]

Some of the Chair positions in Business Management that I have looked into state that the position is tenure-track along with teaching responsibilities.  Is "demanding" tenure reasonable or should I just avoid those positions where tenure-track is stated up-front in the advertisements? 

Rather than "demanding" tenure, negotiate it if/when you are offered the job.  It they are not flexible out it, then decline the job unless other factors make up for it.

Read Getting to Yes for a good intro to negotiations.

[anthroid]

Some of the Chair positions in Business Management that I have looked into state that the position is tenure-track along with teaching responsibilities.  Is "demanding" tenure reasonable or should I just avoid those positions where tenure-track is stated up-front in the advertisements?  Since I am willing to move to most locations in the U.S., I can be somewhat flexible.  I am looking for public 2-or-4-year schools more focused on teaching and service than on research.  Would this make a difference in terms of obtaining tenure?  I keep hearing horror stories about administrators put out on the streets for a bad political move(s).  At my current institution, I am known as an innovative change agent (not always popular with the older faculty) and I know that the administrative road is paved with political banana peels.  I am new at this process (searching for an academic administrative position), and thus, I am working on networking and finding good mentors to try to reduce the risk.  Again, any advice is appreciated.

If you're tenured now, you have every reason to have that as a requirement for taking a chair position elsewhere.  I would never, ever have taken my chair position without retaining the tenure I had earned at another institution.  Really--I would apply, to be sure, and if the position is offered I would make sure that coming in with tenure is part of the deal.  I would not take it if tenure was not attached.

And, what Zharkov said.

[coug_girl]

Thanks greatly.  Please allow me to say that those who have replied are the "cat's meow."  I will check out the book and move forward with more enthusiasm.  I am ready for this step, but deciding to leave my comfort zone has been somewhat scary.  I am getting a late start this year because I am pushing toward the end of publishing my first book.  Realistically, is it too late to start this process for academic year 2008-2009?  Also, I hope I can ask for further advice if the need arises.

[anthroid]

Thanks greatly.  Please allow me to say that those who have replied are the "cat's meow."  I will check out the book and move forward with more enthusiasm.  I am ready for this step, but deciding to leave my comfort zone has been somewhat scary.  I am getting a late start this year because I am pushing toward the end of publishing my first book.  Realistically, is it too late to start this process for academic year 2008-2009?  Also, I hope I can ask for further advice if the need arises.

It might be a bit too late for the fall semester, though you could give it a shot for the spring.  Realistically, though, I think probably you'll have to aim for academic year 09-10.

And, believe me, I understand completely about leaving the comfort zone.  Moving into a chairship was one of the scariest things I ever did in my life.  It's a fun job, though, and it's worth the fear!

[oldchair]

Would there be any opportunity to gain administrative experience at your current institution without giving up tenure? 

Folks who have worked in the corporate world have told me that it's very different from academic administration. 

It would be very unfortunate to give up a secure position in which you're obviously successful for a position you might grow to dislike. 

[losemygrip]

How do you know you want to move into administration when you've never done it?  I'd be REALLY cautious.  You may find that your industry experience is inapplicable.

I'd get myself some experience at my current institution before moving on.  Frankly, I don't think much of your chances of moving on without it.

[wxdude]

How do you know you want to move into administration when you've never done it?  I'd be REALLY cautious.  You may find that your industry experience is inapplicable.

I'd get myself some experience at my current institution before moving on.  Frankly, I don't think much of your chances of moving on without it.

Agreed. Any chance you could take on an associate chair position at your present institution first? Academic administration is challenging, particularly when it comes to managing colleagues rather than employees.

[drangie]

Coupla thoughts from someone who has experience as full-time faculty, chair and dean . . .

It depends on what one means by "administrative."  Very often that term is used to refer to non-teaching roles in such areas as student affairs, admissions, etc.  In those cases, tenure does not apply.  But if you're talking chair and dean, then yes, tenure applies. 

If you have tenure now, I wouldn't dream of taking on  chair or dean without tenure.  I wouldn' t have taken on my chair or dean positions without tenure. 

Leadership experience  in business sometimes does not apply in academe.  The main reason? Tenure, interestingly enough.  When one is running a division for, say, IBM, you have some say over whom you work with.  As a chair or dean, you have much less say about it, and no say in the cases of tenured faculty.

[coug_girl]

Thanks to everyone who has helped me with an opinion.  I cannot really discuss this topic with my co-workers, so this forum is a god-send.  In my current university position, there is little chance to go the administrative route.  I have been trying to move toward "administrative" experiences at work, but no one is planning to leave or retire soon.

However, this morning, I had an interview at a nearby institution for a department chair's position.  This interview was not faculty-based in terms of attendees.  As the Round One Interview, it involved one higher-level administrator, two other department chairs, and the director from HR.

I answered all questions after being asked -- hitting a home run on some, but I probably missed the mark on a few of them.  I am a little rusty in interviewing so that is to be expected.  I will keep practicing.

As I mentioned earlier, I have administrative experience in a business setting, but not in a faculty setting.  (I understand that these are not the same situations, but it is the best that I can offer at this point in my career.)  At one point in the interview, the higher-level administrator stated that he wanted to hire someone with faculty-based administrative experience.  Fortunately, it was near the end of the interview because my first thought was that the comment was a real "show stopper."  I did not really know what to say at that point because all of my application materials indicated my previous work experiences including the fact that I did not have faculty-based administrative experience.  I did not say anything about the comment and the interview continued to its conclusion.  However, I was quite depressed at the end of the interview and on the way home.

Here's the question.  If I made it known ahead of time that I did not have faculty-based administrative experience and they wanted someone with that kind of work experience, why did they invite me in for an interview?       

[choirguy]

Chances are they wouldn't have invited you for the interview if a majority of those making the decision didn't have in inkling you could do the job.  I agree wholeheartedly with everyone who said you should not consider a chair position that does not include tenure.  Rank is negotiable -- Associate or Full -- but not tenure.  Managing academic colleagues, particularly those with tenure is closely akin to herding cats, pushing rope, and nailing jello to a wall.  You will use every ounce of negotiating energy that you have, and then some.  You will understand and experience the adage that the intensity of an academic fight is inversely proportional to the importance of the issue.

My advice -- Go for it, as long as you can negotiate for and get tenure.  Academia needs more administrators who understand more of the world than the ivory tower.  But, people and institutions don't usually want what they truly need.

Good luck