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[truescholar601]

FPs are never going to have tenure, or any sort of academic anything; they're businesses.  They run on a corporate model that facilitates education as a product, not as an academic institution.  The idea of hiring independent employees, who can't be fired, would be a nightmare for FP institutions. 

FWIW, the local CC in my city only hired one year, renewable contracts for all of their professor hires this year due to budget cuts; no one was hired on the tenure track.

Like both of you, I've got FP and NP experience.  Like Nomad, I'm also an Education student who has studied both systems.  Nomad is absolutely correct in his comments.

Jonsey... Again... please do not underestimate my experience or knowledge of higher education. Again, that is a major research focus of mine.

I believe that tenure can be a bad thing, but it's also a growing problem in higher education. *draw your own conclusions. For instance... Walden does not grant tenure but has had full time faculty employed there for 37 years. If the faculty member is doing their job... what difference does tenure make?  Heck, Columbia just fired a tenured professor for plagiarism.

Academic freedom....what evidence does Nomad have to show that FPs don't encourage academic freedom? Example.... again WU.... the faculty is in charge of the curricula...... they decide what gets taught and are encouraged to make changes where they see fit... YES there is an annual meeting... but committees meet and communicate throughout the year...so please help me understand?

Yes I read the Chronicle often, but I know what research exists out there on this issue.... and it's not much. But I also know that Nomad's lit review is bias and is not exhaustive.

All of a sudden, Nomad goes from FP to NFP... and he/she is better.... ?  Oh please.

[nomad]

Like Nomad, I'm also an Education student who has studied both systems.  Nomad is absolutely correct in his comments.

Thank you from Nomad...a she!

[truescholar601]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

Argosy's PsyD is APA accredited. 

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

[octoprof]

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

There's so much wrong with this post, I won't even start. It's too close to bedtime.

[truescholar601]

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

There's so much wrong with this post, I won't even start. It's too close to bedtime.

You're only choosing to go to bed because you know I'm right.

[octoprof]

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

There's so much wrong with this post, I won't even start. It's too close to bedtime.

You're only choosing to go to bed because you know I'm right.

What's the most amusing here is that you probably really think that. :o)

Sometimes, folks just can't be bothered with your silliness.

[nomad]

Academic freedom....what evidence does Nomad have to show that FPs don't encourage academic freedom? Example.... again WU.... the faculty is in charge of the curricula...... they decide what gets taught and are encouraged to make changes where they see fit...

Yes but can the faculty speak out against the institution. Can the faculty speak out against public policies and authorities. Are they protected for their beliefs. This is academic freedom and when an institution has the ability to fire an individual because he or she disagrees with the institution then there is no academic freedom. This is one way in which FP and NP are different.

It is important to express that I actually believe that FPs, in many cases, are good institutions. The argument is not which is better. The argument is, are they different. The answer is yes they are. They are governed differently. Their faculty are different. Their mission is different. Let's stop pretending that they are not. It is this difference that, in some ways, make FP a good choice for some students. I was one of those students. I choose a FP and it would have been a good choice, except I changed my interests and the FP worked against me. Had I remained in IT I would have been well served by a FP.

FPs have very good student services. This is one of the reasons they attract so many students. Their counseling and job assistance is far better then most traditional schools. They are friendly toward returning students. They are friendly toward working adults. Traditional institutions can learn a lot from FPs. They bring in large numbers of minority students who, otherwise, may not have attended college. They hold the hand of first generation students who would be lost in traditional schools. The money they makes is not all about profit. It is also about students. They are student centered and it shows.

This is not about being better. This discussion is about the differences. FPs are not the same by a long shot.

Having a difference of opinion should not get anyone upset. I disagree that these institutions are the same. I do take offense at people speaking down to me as if I was a lowly student. I am also an educator and have been for years. I have done quite a bit of research on this topic. I do know what I am talking about. This is not a war. It is a discussion.

[truescholar601]

Academic freedom....what evidence does Nomad have to show that FPs don't encourage academic freedom? Example.... again WU.... the faculty is in charge of the curricula...... they decide what gets taught and are encouraged to make changes where they see fit...

Yes but can the faculty speak out against the institution. Can the faculty speak out against public policies and authorities. Are they protected for their beliefs. This is academic freedom and when an institution has the ability to fire an individual because he or she disagrees with the institution then there is no academic freedom. This is one way in which FP and NP are different.

It is important to express that I actually believe that FPs, in many cases, are good institutions. The argument is not which is better. The argument is, are they different. The answer is yes they are. They are governed differently. Their faculty are different. Their mission is different. Let's stop pretending that they are not. It is this difference that, in some ways, make FP a good choice for some students. I was one of those students. I choose a FP and it would have been a good choice, except I changed my interests and the FP worked against me. Had I remained in IT I would have been well served by a FP.

FPs have very good student services. This is one of the reasons they attract so many students. Their counseling and job assistance is far better then most traditional schools. They are friendly toward returning students. They are friendly toward working adults. Traditional institutions can learn a lot from FPs. They bring in large numbers of minority students who, otherwise, may not have attended college. They hold the hand of first generation students who would be lost in traditional schools. The money they makes is not all about profit. It is also about students. They are student centered and it shows.

This is not about being better. This discussion is about the differences. FPs are not the same by a long shot.

Having a difference of opinion should not get anyone upset. I disagree that these institutions are the same. I do take offense at people speaking down to me as if I was a lowly student. I am also an educator and have been for years. I have done quite a bit of research on this topic. I do know what I am talking about. This is not a war. It is a discussion.

Yes... this is a discussion and I would really like to keep it that way. But things crossed when assumed that I have not done any research in this area or have not been in education to know what I'm talking about.

You say that with academic freedom tenured faculty members can speak out against the university...etc. And at FPs, they don't have this privilege... or so you believe. But what about the non-tenured faculty at NPs? Even at my institution, which has been around for almost 150 years.... I have seen GOOD faculty be exposed of because they said the wrong thing about the administration.

At most NPs you still have more nontenured than you do tenured. And oftentimes nontenured and tenured don't share the same ideas. Instead tenured faculty retire to their office in the monastery.

[mdwlark]

The 4-Profit I interviewed with not only writes the syllabi for everyone, they prepackage all the lesson plans and assignments, and faculty are expected to follow the course precisely.  Rats, I forgot to ask them what support they would give me for my research.   

[zharkov]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

Argosy's PsyD is APA accredited. 

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

AACSB is not nearly as elite as you make it out to be.

A year or two ago, I think we estimated that about 500 schools are AACSB, 500 are ACBSP, and maybe another 1000 are accredited by neither.  This last group includes many schools where the department is rather small or the mission of the school is not very business focused (eg, a SLAC).

Nothing wrong with ACBSP, but if you look at the actual schools that are accredited, they tend to be Compass Point state colleges, CCs, and middle ranked private schools. (What I call teaching schools.)

AACSB requires faculty to be true scholars, to coin a phase.  They are expected to teach and research.  I would find it odd for any doctorate-granting university, non profit, public, or for profit, to not be a member.

And no, most business profs don't make $145K.  I'd expect the AACSB average for all disciplines, all schools, to be less than 100K, and probably in the 80s. (Based just on people I know.)
 

[untenured]

Nomad could have been your supporter.  Instead you attacked nomad and squabbled with her.  What in tarnation is wrong with you?

Before I read this thread, I was neutral on FP's like Capella and Walden.  Now, I have a healthy mistrust of their supporters.  If your goal was erode the status of FP's and support NP's, you're doing a great job.

I'm still waiting for that link to the Chronicle stating that "many" universities have moved from not-profit to for-profit orientation.  If you say something, back it up.

Until then you have zero credibility.

Anytime now.

Untenured

[truescholar601]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

Argosy's PsyD is APA accredited. 

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

AACSB is not nearly as elite as you make it out to be.

A year or two ago, I think we estimated that about 500 schools are AACSB, 500 are ACBSP, and maybe another 1000 are accredited by neither.  This last group includes many schools where the department is rather small or the mission of the school is not very business focused (eg, a SLAC).

Nothing wrong with ACBSP, but if you look at the actual schools that are accredited, they tend to be Compass Point state colleges, CCs, and middle ranked private schools. (What I call teaching schools.)

AACSB requires faculty to be true scholars, to coin a phase.  They are expected to teach and research.  I would find it odd for any doctorate-granting university, non profit, public, or for profit, to not be a member.

And no, most business profs don't make $145K.  I'd expect the AACSB average for all disciplines, all schools, to be less than 100K, and probably in the 80s. (Based just on people I know.)
 

Interesting points made Zharkov. There is another accreditor, IACBE, but it is not recognized by CHEA. Schools like Belhaven College has that accreditation but have also coupled it with ACBSP.

According to the AACSB... in 2001 alone, the average salary for finance faculty was $133K. Accounting was $115. This is "new hire" data and at the professor level. Of course associate prof and assist prof are slightly lower. In 2006 these went up about another 2 percent.

At Jackson State University, the dean makes $225..... her salary is subsidized by private funds as is many other faculty salaries.

[zharkov]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

Argosy's PsyD is APA accredited. 

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

AACSB is not nearly as elite as you make it out to be.

A year or two ago, I think we estimated that about 500 schools are AACSB, 500 are ACBSP, and maybe another 1000 are accredited by neither.  This last group includes many schools where the department is rather small or the mission of the school is not very business focused (eg, a SLAC).

Nothing wrong with ACBSP, but if you look at the actual schools that are accredited, they tend to be Compass Point state colleges, CCs, and middle ranked private schools. (What I call teaching schools.)

AACSB requires faculty to be true scholars, to coin a phase.  They are expected to teach and research.  I would find it odd for any doctorate-granting university, non profit, public, or for profit, to not be a member.

And no, most business profs don't make $145K.  I'd expect the AACSB average for all disciplines, all schools, to be less than 100K, and probably in the 80s. (Based just on people I know.)
 

Interesting points made Zharkov. There is another accreditor, IACBE, but it is not recognized by CHEA. Schools like Belhaven College has that accreditation but have also coupled it with ACBSP.

According to the AACSB... in 2001 alone, the average salary for finance faculty was $133K. Accounting was $115. This is "new hire" data and at the professor level. Of course associate prof and assist prof are slightly lower. In 2006 these went up about another 2 percent.

At Jackson State University, the dean makes $225..... her salary is subsidized by private funds as is many other faculty salaries.

IACBE is what is known as a faux-creditor.

Thanks for the data.  It is higher than my pals make, but they have been in place for a while, and new hires often make more than old hands.  (This data is available for many public Us, btw.)

Also, keep in mind that the finance prof who makes 133K can double or triple his or her salary by working outside of academia.

I don't know if Walden has a finance concentration or not, but if it does, those are the kind of people the school would need to make the program credible, and if that is what they are worth, then that is what they are worth.

 

[truescholar601]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

Argosy's PsyD is APA accredited. 

In Business, there are two accreditation bodies approved by CHEA. You have AACSB and ACBSP. AACSB focuses on faculty research and ACBSP focuses on research and teaching excellence. AACSB only accredits roughly 10% of business schools presently standing. ACBSP has met the demand for quality business education accreditation. Many good schools simply cannot afford AACSB. They also cannot afford to pay faculty $145K a year just to come, offer tenure, never be able to get rid of them, and teach three classes a day. It's just not feasible.

ACBSP serves a major purpose since AACSB accredits the major universities.

AACSB is not nearly as elite as you make it out to be.

A year or two ago, I think we estimated that about 500 schools are AACSB, 500 are ACBSP, and maybe another 1000 are accredited by neither.  This last group includes many schools where the department is rather small or the mission of the school is not very business focused (eg, a SLAC).

Nothing wrong with ACBSP, but if you look at the actual schools that are accredited, they tend to be Compass Point state colleges, CCs, and middle ranked private schools. (What I call teaching schools.)

AACSB requires faculty to be true scholars, to coin a phase.  They are expected to teach and research.  I would find it odd for any doctorate-granting university, non profit, public, or for profit, to not be a member.

And no, most business profs don't make $145K.  I'd expect the AACSB average for all disciplines, all schools, to be less than 100K, and probably in the 80s. (Based just on people I know.)
 

Interesting points made Zharkov. There is another accreditor, IACBE, but it is not recognized by CHEA. Schools like Belhaven College has that accreditation but have also coupled it with ACBSP.

According to the AACSB... in 2001 alone, the average salary for finance faculty was $133K. Accounting was $115. This is "new hire" data and at the professor level. Of course associate prof and assist prof are slightly lower. In 2006 these went up about another 2 percent.

At Jackson State University, the dean makes $225..... her salary is subsidized by private funds as is many other faculty salaries.

IACBE is what is known as a faux-creditor.

Thanks for the data.  It is higher than my pals make, but they have been in place for a while, and new hires often make more than old hands.  (This data is available for many public Us, btw.)

Also, keep in mind that the finance prof who makes 133K can double or triple his or her salary by working outside of academia.

I don't know if Walden has a finance concentration or not, but if it does, those are the kind of people the school would need to make the program credible, and if that is what they are worth, then that is what they are worth.

 

Zharkov..... oftentimes.. when an old head gets tenure.... his/her salary stops at that level too..... job security is there but I want an increase in salary too. I wouldn't want a youngin' coming in making more than me. :-)

Many finance profs do make more than their basic salary.. overall. For instance.... the dean at JSU makes 225 per annum for her appointment... but she is also an economist. I worked with a trial where she was an expert witness who did a number play on what the deceased would have made in her lifetime... etc.  She charged $1,200 an hour. That was 3 years ago.... and she's one of 3 African American females in the country with the Ph.D./JD/CPA/MBA designation.  I was jealous because I only got $500 an hour. lol

The liberal arts college does not pay me that much.... but that's the sacrifice I make for teaching 2-3 class a day of no more than 10-20 students. I do business and educational consulting and teach online to push me over the 6 figure range.

[phydeaux]

Let's see: "customer"-driven, top-down management, no tenure, faculty afraid to speak up... That's not an FP institution; it's my faith-based college in the South!