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[gourmand601]

Actually it is the other way around. I have the lit review in front of me on my desk.  I took my entire lit review and stuck it into one post.

This is pulled from your post

"Western Governors University, an online institution has a nonprofit status but operates under a for-profit model like Franklin University. "

What does for profit model mean in this quote? Is top down organizational governance which is management centered instead of faculty centered? Does it refer to finance?  Does it refer to student services? This is a pretty vague description.

With for-profit institutions, you can still have organizational governance and faculty governance. Actually... if you think about it... every institution has this. Sometimes the two sides do clash. I honestly see it as a checks and balance as long as the institution isn't publicly traded......

But the overall idea here is student centeredness.

Actually this is where the literature is somewhat strong. One of the main differences between FP and traditional NPs is the governance and decision making.  FP  typically have no faculty governance. Faculty are employees without tenure and they serve the administration. They do not have the protection of tenure. There are no steps for advancement. Faculty are not hired based on their education as much as their expertise. The education is a requirement of accreditation. The expertise, specifically in the field, is the requirement of the institution. This means that FP and traditionals have different models of decision making not related to finance.

One more area that makes the difference are courses. FP courses are typically NOT designed by faculty. They are designed by subjects experts and taught by faculty. In my experience faculty at traditional universities design their own courses. This is a major difference in teaching model and this is pretty significant in my experience. This means that any faculty can fill any spot as long as they have some knowledge of an area. This means that a student wont choose a school because a specific findividual is there.

Most students who are choosing between FP and traditional organizations do not know this the differences that I have discussed. The question is, when you speak of a non-profit with a FP model are you talking more then the bottom line. Who designs the courses? How are faculty treated and what is their place?

It is the place of the faculty that makes the choice between the FP or traditional significant. Not the finances. A student must understand when they choose a FP who they are learning from and what they are learning. For a masters in info systems it didn't matter for me. For a PhD where I will be doing original research under the guidance of a mentor it make a huge difference. If I plan to seek out an academic job after graduation, my mentor matters. If I want to do research as a grad student, I want someone whose name is known and who is currently publishing. In my opinion this specifically can be a problem for a student hoping to go into academia from a FP institution. It is not only about how the money is handled. It is about who is being hired to teach. I enjoyed teaching at the FP I worked at. But I taught from a syllabus that was designed by someone else and gave tests that were required by the organization. I instructed. This worked well for undergrads and my AA students. This is not a good thing for graduate students especially PhD level.

I wrote this rather quickly as I am just about to step out. Hopefully it made sense.

Nomad

I think you have made a strong point but based on your recent comment I doubt that your research of the literature has been exhaustive. I also that if you were to perhaps do a case study, you'd find that each FP that you study is structurally different.

I currently teach for a SLAC, but have taught for Keller Graduate School of Management. The course shells are their for faculty to use. However, faculty members are pushed to make changes that extend the curriculum. Not much could be taken out, but much more could be added to the coursework.

Before anyone enrolls in an instution, it's important that they research the faculty and their credentials that they will be studying under. I did this when I chose Walden. And I agree that you would want your mentor well published and known... Which is why I was blessed with my advisor... a Harvard Ph.D. grad. My mentor and I have a strong working relationship to this day, but sad to say... his name did not get my research presented at Yale.

FPs and NPs are generally structured the same. There have been some historical battles between the President of the University and President/CEO of the Corporation, but that is where you will see people stepping down.... as we have recently seen the CEO of Apollo step down after the Founder of Phoenix stepped in to drop him a peg.

If you go beyond the existing literature, which we both know there is an existing gap, you will find that most FPs that offer doctoral degrees have residencies, and full time faculty who mentor a select few of students from the beginning to the hooding at graduation. You will also find that the drop out rate in most FP doctoral programs to be extremely high but within a similar frame of NPs. At most FPs that offer doctoral degrees, you will find that full and part time faculty are heavily engaged in scholarship activity.

In many cases, and I hope that you exhaust your literature search... and perhaps study a few cases.... you will find that besides the tax filings.... some FPs... especially your most successful ones.... are operated similar to a traditional NP programs.

[gourmand601]

Actually it is the other way around. I have the lit review in front of me on my desk.  I took my entire lit review and stuck it into one post.

This is pulled from your post

"Western Governors University, an online institution has a nonprofit status but operates under a for-profit model like Franklin University. "

What does for profit model mean in this quote? Is top down organizational governance which is management centered instead of faculty centered? Does it refer to finance?  Does it refer to student services? This is a pretty vague description.

With for-profit institutions, you can still have organizational governance and faculty governance. Actually... if you think about it... every institution has this. Sometimes the two sides do clash. I honestly see it as a checks and balance as long as the institution isn't publicly traded......

But the overall idea here is student centeredness.

Actually this is where the literature is somewhat strong. One of the main differences between FP and traditional NPs is the governance and decision making.  FP  typically have no faculty governance. Faculty are employees without tenure and they serve the administration. They do not have the protection of tenure. There are no steps for advancement. Faculty are not hired based on their education as much as their expertise. The education is a requirement of accreditation. The expertise, specifically in the field, is the requirement of the institution. This means that FP and traditionals have different models of decision making not related to finance.

One more area that makes the difference are courses. FP courses are typically NOT designed by faculty. They are designed by subjects experts and taught by faculty. In my experience faculty at traditional universities design their own courses. This is a major difference in teaching model and this is pretty significant in my experience. This means that any faculty can fill any spot as long as they have some knowledge of an area. This means that a student wont choose a school because a specific findividual is there.

Most students who are choosing between FP and traditional organizations do not know this the differences that I have discussed. The question is, when you speak of a non-profit with a FP model are you talking more then the bottom line. Who designs the courses? How are faculty treated and what is their place?

It is the place of the faculty that makes the choice between the FP or traditional significant. Not the finances. A student must understand when they choose a FP who they are learning from and what they are learning. For a masters in info systems it didn't matter for me. For a PhD where I will be doing original research under the guidance of a mentor it make a huge difference. If I plan to seek out an academic job after graduation, my mentor matters. If I want to do research as a grad student, I want someone whose name is known and who is currently publishing. In my opinion this specifically can be a problem for a student hoping to go into academia from a FP institution. It is not only about how the money is handled. It is about who is being hired to teach. I enjoyed teaching at the FP I worked at. But I taught from a syllabus that was designed by someone else and gave tests that were required by the organization. I instructed. This worked well for undergrads and my AA students. This is not a good thing for graduate students especially PhD level.

I wrote this rather quickly as I am just about to step out. Hopefully it made sense.

Nomad

Hey Nomad... I really think you should do a case study and compare the FPs and perhaps extend this comparison with a few select NPs. I don't think it would be fair to generalize.. but I guess you did say "typically"... and that may be correct.

Here I go again... lol.  Here is the link to Walden University's Faculty Governance policy. Tell me what you think about it. http://inside.waldenu.edu/c/Student_Faculty/StudentFaculty_12441.htm

[jonesey]

True,

What research did you present at Yale?  I'm assuming there's a link somewhere?

[gourmand601]

True,

What research did you present at Yale?  I'm assuming there's a link somewhere?

I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to answer that as soon as you tell me where you've presented your research AND provide me with links.  More than happy.

[jonesey]

True,

What research did you present at Yale?  I'm assuming there's a link somewhere?

I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to answer that as soon as you tell me where you've presented your research AND provide me with links.  More than happy.

Well, then we'd out each other.  : ) 

I've got nothing against Walden, or any FP school.  Unfortunately, as you've seen, there is a huge amount of predjudice against FP education in higher ed.  I wish it were different, but it isn't.  FP schools are great for some people, but they're not really designed for people to get positions in traditional TT institutions. 

[zharkov]

Isn't it funny how some people wander into songs and get trapped?

When some loud braggart tries to put me down
And says his school is great
I tell him right away
Now whats the matter buddy
Aint you heard of my school
Its number one in the state

[gourmand601]

True,

What research did you present at Yale?  I'm assuming there's a link somewhere?

I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to answer that as soon as you tell me where you've presented your research AND provide me with links.  More than happy.

Well, then we'd out each other.  : ) 

I've got nothing against Walden, or any FP school.  Unfortunately, as you've seen, there is a huge amount of predjudice against FP education in higher ed.  I wish it were different, but it isn't.  FP schools are great for some people, but they're not really designed for people to get positions in traditional TT institutions. 

 

You're right! lol  But I honestly have no problem sharing as long as the field was equal.

There is a lot of stigma associated with FP schools. And I agree that their primary focus is not to get graduates into traditional TT positions. But I want every to know that it's not impossible.

There are a lot of FP schools that give the genre a bad name. However there are some good ones out there who have aggressive research agendas and are active in publishing and presenting. That's why the faculty is both professionally and academically qualified.

With Walden University, for example.... doctoral students are not trained under a scholar model of learning. Instead they learn under the scholar-practitioner model where all research is immediately appliable to organizations and society. The university has a social change mission.... which requires that students focus research that betters the human condition and makes a positive impact in organizations... including academia.

Diploma Mills have given solid FPs like Walden and Union a bad rep.... but if one takes a good look... the finished product is polished.

I cannot speak for all FPs. And there is talk of taking WU to a NP status. But even then... nothing will change because it doesn't have to. Scholarships and research funding is available for both students and faculty.... and it's plentiful. There is a research center that also helps faculty and students to acquire grants for research.

[kedves]

Isn't it funny how some people wander into songs and get trapped?

When some loud braggart tries to put me down
And says his school is great
I tell him right away
Now whats the matter buddy
Aint you heard of my school
Its number one in the state

Is this from a song?  I don't recognize it.

[jonesey]

Union isn't FP; it's a non-profit, but your point is valid. 

[nomad]

I think you have made a strong point but based on your recent comment I doubt that your research of the literature has been exhaustive. I also that if you were to perhaps do a case study, you'd find that each FP that you study is structurally different.

Which comment is that.

My research is quite exhaustive, actually.

There has already been a case study of faculty done on a variety of FP institutions. In fact, that study is where I draw a lot of my info.

I currently teach for a SLAC, but have taught for Keller Graduate School of Management. The course shells are their for faculty to use. However, faculty members are pushed to make changes that extend the curriculum. Not much could be taken out, but much more could be added to the coursework.

Yes course shells were exactly what I was talking about. Adding something in is possible but the course is designed by the curriculum development team.

FPs and NPs are generally structured the same.

Actually no. They are not.

We have several things in common.

1. We both got degrees from FP universities/colleges.
2. We both have taught at FP universities/colleges

There is one major difference.

I have actually done quite a bit of research on the topic.  I am an education student. I study higher education. This is my field.

You have been reading the Chronicle, that is true, but that is not research. The fact that you are unaware of the case study that I mentioned indicates that you have not even glanced at the actual literature that exists.

In many cases, and I hope that you exhaust your literature search... and perhaps study a few cases.... you will find that besides the tax filings.... some FPs... especially your most successful ones.... are operated similar to a traditional NP programs.

Case studies...I have already addressed that. I suggest that you do the same.

The problem that I see here is that you have not had much experience working in or studying about traditional higher education. This is the problem with this discussion. There is no way to discuss the similarities or differences of two types of organizations if there is knowledge of only one.

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

[jonesey]

FPs are never going to have tenure, or any sort of academic anything; they're businesses.  They run on a corporate model that facilitates education as a product, not as an academic institution.  The idea of hiring independent employees, who can't be fired, would be a nightmare for FP institutions. 

FWIW, the local CC in my city only hired one year, renewable contracts for all of their professor hires this year due to budget cuts; no one was hired on the tenure track.

Like both of you, I've got FP and NP experience.  Like Nomad, I'm also an Education student who has studied both systems.  Nomad is absolutely correct in his comments.

[zharkov]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

[gourmand601]

Union isn't FP; it's a non-profit, but your point is valid. 

I stand corrected. But they have been on probation! :-)  But over all I'm glad they were able to work things out... especially with the Board of Regents in Ohio.

One of my intensive professors was a union grad. Dr. Nichols... very genuine guy.

[jonesey]

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

While it has been a year or so since I checked, I believe that no FP doctoral program has been accredited by two of the most important accreditors, AACSB (business) and APA (psych). 

Argosy's PsyD is APA accredited. 

[gourmand601]

I think you have made a strong point but based on your recent comment I doubt that your research of the literature has been exhaustive. I also that if you were to perhaps do a case study, you'd find that each FP that you study is structurally different.

Which comment is that.

My research is quite exhaustive, actually.

There has already been a case study of faculty done on a variety of FP institutions. In fact, that study is where I draw a lot of my info.

I currently teach for a SLAC, but have taught for Keller Graduate School of Management. The course shells are their for faculty to use. However, faculty members are pushed to make changes that extend the curriculum. Not much could be taken out, but much more could be added to the coursework.

Yes course shells were exactly what I was talking about. Adding something in is possible but the course is designed by the curriculum development team.

FPs and NPs are generally structured the same.

Actually no. They are not.

We have several things in common.

1. We both got degrees from FP universities/colleges.
2. We both have taught at FP universities/colleges

There is one major difference.

I have actually done quite a bit of research on the topic.  I am an education student. I study higher education. This is my field.

You have been reading the Chronicle, that is true, but that is not research. The fact that you are unaware of the case study that I mentioned indicates that you have not even glanced at the actual literature that exists.

In many cases, and I hope that you exhaust your literature search... and perhaps study a few cases.... you will find that besides the tax filings.... some FPs... especially your most successful ones.... are operated similar to a traditional NP programs.

Case studies...I have already addressed that. I suggest that you do the same.

The problem that I see here is that you have not had much experience working in or studying about traditional higher education. This is the problem with this discussion. There is no way to discuss the similarities or differences of two types of organizations if there is knowledge of only one.

What I would really like to see is a FP program with tenured faculty and a faculty senate that makes decisions. Not one that meets once a year and goes over yearly reports or decisions.  I would like to see a FP that encourages academic freedom. I would like to see a FP that does not have top down governance. These are things that separate FP from traditional universities.

As soon as you're done with the little dissertation of yours, please let me know because I will be one of the first to tear it apart.

Instead of being critical of the 1 study that has been done on for-profits, you instead sided with it. You need to claim your bias. Your literature review is not exhaustive. You have taken a position, which you should not have.

Yes we both graduated from an FP, but you're the one ashamed of it..... I tried opening your eyes to let you know that you should look at other things. How you discuss them in your review is up to you... but you must be factual and have it all covered.

I asked you of what you thought about the faculty governance and you go trying to be critical.. perhaps because it negates what you're trying to "prove" in your study instead of allowing things to unfold as they are.

You're an education STUDENT... but I am an education practitioner. A lot of my research focuses on higher education. I have published papers in the area of higher education... so your assumptions are very wrong.