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[gradoften06]

Jonesey, I appreciate your reply and thoughtful comments..

[nomad]

Jonesey, could you send some information about these business journal articles that look at the economic outcomes of for-profit students?

There aren't any.  At least, not that I've found. 

Jonesy, your prior statement here is what made us think you knew about some actual articles:

This is no information about the earnings, job stability, or economic value of for-profit degrees in academic journals.

There is, however, quite a bit of this in business journals.

I actually have done a pretty exhaustive journal article search on FPs. If anyone is interested I can very easily email an annotated bibliography of the articles I have. I think I have about 70 references and have most of the actual articles pulled and on my computer.

I come from an education view and not a business view. I am not looking at business journals. I use education journals. I will probably turn to business journals next semester. I am currently doing a rather large literature review on FPs. This is my area of interest.

[georgia_guy]

Thanks for the links, jonesey......

Here is a quote from the Business Week article, and essentially responds to my comment about none of the FPs being AACSB accredited:

Similarly, the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business, an oversight body, has refused to accredit the business schools of the University of Phoenix and other for-profits. These schools rely on "moonlighting amateurs" to teach courses, charges AACSB CEO John Fernandes. "It's like running a hospital with orderlies."

This is a good example of how much of traditional higher ed sees FP ed.

Hi all, Have not been posting for a while, but this one was irresistable, especially with some of the resumes I have received recently.

First, regarding the quality of instructor at some of these online schools: Recently, I got an email from someone who is an "adjunct" for an online for-profit (that is named after a big city in a western state). This person indicated that they were interested in a tenure-track position at my college (an AACSB accredited master's-granting, teching oriented university). They wanted to know if an MBA would be sufficient, because they were APPLYING TO START an MBA program. They indicated that they had several years of experience adjuncting at the online school, and were about to start a master's program. It would appear that they were teaching based on work experience, but they only had about 8 years of work listed, and none of it very high level.

My second point regards the "dissertation committees". I know someone completing a "Ph.D." from one of the named institutions in the title of OPs post. This individual was told to solicit volunteers to make up their "dissertation committee". Only one member of the committee was actually an employee for the school, and the others all had a vested interest in seeing this person finish. None of them had a degree in "management" or "organizations". In fact, unless you count economics, none of them had degrees in business.

My next point regards accreditation. How can a University offer Ph.D.'s in a field like Business (or Psychology, or Education) without professional accreditation from AACSB (or APA or NCATE)? My University has AACSB and NCATE accreditation, and we don't have Ph.D.s. If they cannot get professional accreditation of their programs, they should not offer Ph.D.s and they might want to consider whether they should even be offering master's degrees.

One last point. Just about every resume I get from someone with a degree from one of these schools has the same pattern. Typically some career experience, or military career. Then a Ph.D. from the online for-profit. Then about 2 to 10 years of adjuncting experience. Nearly no full-time jobs. The exceptions to that are people who got full-time jobs as PQ faculty, and then obtained their degrees from the online school. I know of a couple in that situation, and the degree has not helped them advance.

[navajose]

Hello Truescholar, I could not help myself. I had to make a very brief comment, mostly in support of your initial postings in direct response to the original messages - by the cc instructor. I also have a question at the bottom of this posting.

I am actually also a cc instructor in California. I have taught traditionally and online for over 10 years and think of myself as one of the pioneers in teaching online, so I am very much in favor of online learning - mostly due to its practical benefits (ie. access to education for non-traditional students).

I am also debating whether to pursue a traditional or online doctoral program. I found your responses in this regard, in the initial part of the discussion thread, very helpful.

I have attended well-known programs (R1 programs) for my degrees (BA and MBA) in California and now I'm ready to continue my academic path. I already attended a doctoral program in a traditional setting for a 1 year, then left on a leave. Now that I am ready to go back; I am reassessing whether I should go back to that university or start anew at Walden, Argosy, or other online institutions. I have completed a couple of graduate level online certificates before and found that the pedagogy online was most appropriate for mature adults than what I saw in the traditional university.

My experience tells me, and this may be the reason for the disconnect between your initial postings and that of others in this thread, that the audience for traditional versus online graduate degrees is different. So, trying to convince a certain audience about the virtues of online education will likely miss the mark. I read most of the initial responses to your initial comments and found them a bit ignorant and biased, but just a bit, given the possibility that their needs are different than for you and me. I do not need the branding nor the tenure. I simply need to learn, without the trials and tribulations of the politics of traditional doctoral programs (by the way, you follow-up comments were not necessary, in my opinion).

Traditional doctoral programs do fulfill their mission in the educational landscape, but their importance and dominance will wane as educational access widens to sectors of society that have been traditionally shut out. They, or should I say we, also deserve to learn, and to contribute to the learning of others. I feel that most non for profit R1 institutions follow a very narrow mandate for knowledge. I also feel that there is a need for more applied research or just simply applied practice founded on doctoral study, for which R1 type of study may not be appropriate. Unfortunately, there is not enough desire, or maybe budget, for the traditional institutions to fulfill these other needs. So whether public or for profit, the need is there, and I am thankful that having other options (distinct from the R1 model) is finally becoming a reality. Online education is here to stay, it's up to us to improve the delivery and to continue to expand access to everyone that wants to learn.

I have decided to complete my education online, since it fits my needs; I would love to hear your opinion, if any, as to what programs you would recommend. I am interested in two areas, which reflect my interest and my background, respectively. I am either looking for an education program focusing on language acquisition or an accounting program.

note: pardon my grammatical errors, but I am guessing that even without perfect APA style writing, my points are decently clear.... 

[untenured]

Welcome to the forums.

This thread has not been active for over three months.  You might not get a response.

Untenured

[octoprof]

I am interested in two areas, which reflect my interest and my background, respectively. I am either looking for an education program focusing on language acquisition or an accounting program.

Good luck with that.

[gourmand601]

Hello Truescholar, I could not help myself. I had to make a very brief comment, mostly in support of your initial postings in direct response to the original messages - by the cc instructor. I also have a question at the bottom of this posting.

I am actually also a cc instructor in California. I have taught traditionally and online for over 10 years and think of myself as one of the pioneers in teaching online, so I am very much in favor of online learning - mostly due to its practical benefits (ie. access to education for non-traditional students).

I am also debating whether to pursue a traditional or online doctoral program. I found your responses in this regard, in the initial part of the discussion thread, very helpful.

I have attended well-known programs (R1 programs) for my degrees (BA and MBA) in California and now I'm ready to continue my academic path. I already attended a doctoral program in a traditional setting for a 1 year, then left on a leave. Now that I am ready to go back; I am reassessing whether I should go back to that university or start anew at Walden, Argosy, or other online institutions. I have completed a couple of graduate level online certificates before and found that the pedagogy online was most appropriate for mature adults than what I saw in the traditional university.

My experience tells me, and this may be the reason for the disconnect between your initial postings and that of others in this thread, that the audience for traditional versus online graduate degrees is different. So, trying to convince a certain audience about the virtues of online education will likely miss the mark. I read most of the initial responses to your initial comments and found them a bit ignorant and biased, but just a bit, given the possibility that their needs are different than for you and me. I do not need the branding nor the tenure. I simply need to learn, without the trials and tribulations of the politics of traditional doctoral programs (by the way, you follow-up comments were not necessary, in my opinion).

Traditional doctoral programs do fulfill their mission in the educational landscape, but their importance and dominance will wane as educational access widens to sectors of society that have been traditionally shut out. They, or should I say we, also deserve to learn, and to contribute to the learning of others. I feel that most non for profit R1 institutions follow a very narrow mandate for knowledge. I also feel that there is a need for more applied research or just simply applied practice founded on doctoral study, for which R1 type of study may not be appropriate. Unfortunately, there is not enough desire, or maybe budget, for the traditional institutions to fulfill these other needs. So whether public or for profit, the need is there, and I am thankful that having other options (distinct from the R1 model) is finally becoming a reality. Online education is here to stay, it's up to us to improve the delivery and to continue to expand access to everyone that wants to learn.

I have decided to complete my education online, since it fits my needs; I would love to hear your opinion, if any, as to what programs you would recommend. I am interested in two areas, which reflect my interest and my background, respectively. I am either looking for an education program focusing on language acquisition or an accounting program.

note: pardon my grammatical errors, but I am guessing that even without perfect APA style writing, my points are decently clear.... 

Hi Navajos. Before I entertain your comment/question, I need to clarify something. Are you looking for a residency or non-residency program? Also, in accounting, will AACSB or ACBSP accreditation be a factor in your decision? In education, is NCATE or TEAC accreditation a factor in your decision? Some doctoral programs in business oriented disciplines are awarded under different names but have an accounting specialization. Is this a factor as well?

Ph.D or Ed.D?

I think I can be of more assistance after you clarify my questions.

Thanks.

TS

[jonesey]

Ahhh!  It's back!

[untenured]

Ahhh!  It's back!

Never expected that.

Untenured

[norelation]

I just read this entire thread and I've been through a whole range of emotions, the latest being joy as we're back on. Yippee!

[kedves]

I'd better get to cleaning.  All my rowdy friends are coming over tonight!

[livvey]

I can't believe I read all these posts. I just want to comment on the salaries of finance profs because my husband is one (at an AACSB accredited school). The overall average for an associate is 120k a year (at least last year). However, that is including those who are not at research universities and those are the ones that drag the average down. That is the average, but that's really because there are two tiers of business school profs: those at AACSB accredited schools, and those who aren't. So while the quoted average may be one thing, the reality is a faculty member at an AACSB accredited school is looking at 140-180 a year for an associate. At least in finance, it is very pedigree oriented. My husband has a very good research record (with an A pub and 2 A-) and there are some schools that just won't give him the time of day even though he's better than some of their faculty members, and that's with a degree from a top 100 ranked business school. Your whole career trajectory is based off of where you got your degree. Someone from a Walden or Capella would be hard pressed to find a job past an adjunct or clinical faculty member.

I'm currently getting a Ph.D. in Accounting (from a traditional Ph.D. programl). I can't think of any even halfway decent Accounting program that would hire a Walden grad as anything more than a clinical or adjunct. Heck, I can't think of any that even have those. If they are going to hire a clinical or an adjunct, they would be more likely to hire someone with a masters from a traditional school. I can't think of one paper published in the past few years in a B- or better journal from anyone from those schools.

Those online schools have their use and their place.  If someone wants a true academic career in every sense of the word academic, then that person would be best served by getting into a traditional Ph.D. program. It's a fine degree if someone wants to teach at a community college or as an adjunct, but as others pointed out above, it is not a degree taken seriously by many schools or by others in academics.

[untenured]

I can't believe I read all these posts. I just want to comment on the salaries of finance profs because my husband is one (at an AACSB accredited school). The overall average for an associate is 120k a year (at least last year). However, that is including those who are not at research universities and those are the ones that drag the average down. That is the average, but that's really because there are two tiers of business school profs: those at AACSB accredited schools, and those who aren't. So while the quoted average may be one thing, the reality is a faculty member at an AACSB accredited school is looking at 140-180 a year for an associate. At least in finance, it is very pedigree oriented. My husband has a very good research record (with an A pub and 2 A-) and there are some schools that just won't give him the time of day even though he's better than some of their faculty members, and that's with a degree from a top 100 ranked business school. Your whole career trajectory is based off of where you got your degree. Someone from a Walden or Capella would be hard pressed to find a job past an adjunct or clinical faculty member.

I'm currently getting a Ph.D. in Accounting (from a traditional Ph.D. programl). I can't think of any even halfway decent Accounting program that would hire a Walden grad as anything more than a clinical or adjunct. Heck, I can't think of any that even have those. If they are going to hire a clinical or an adjunct, they would be more likely to hire someone with a masters from a traditional school. I can't think of one paper published in the past few years in a B- or better journal from anyone from those schools.

Those online schools have their use and their place.  If someone wants a true academic career in every sense of the word academic, then that person would be best served by getting into a traditional Ph.D. program. It's a fine degree if someone wants to teach at a community college or as an adjunct, but as others pointed out above, it is not a degree taken seriously by many schools or by others in academics.

You are right about finance faculty salaries.  Lucrative indeed.

Methinks slipdisco is going to just looove your post.  Let the games begin, er, continue.

*pulls up chair*

Untenured

[octoprof]

That is the average, but that's really because there are two tiers of business school profs: those at AACSB accredited schools, and those who aren't. So while the quoted average may be one thing, the reality is a faculty member at an AACSB accredited school is looking at 140-180 a year for an associate. At least in finance, it is very pedigree oriented.

This is interesting but a bit simplistic. Two tiers is not exactly right as there are tiers among the AACSB schools as well.  You will not get the same salary at say, Jackson State, as at Michigan.  The former probably won't get near the low end of your named range and the latter may be well off the top of your named range, yet both are AACSB accredited doctoral granting institutions.  If a PhD was earned some years ago, they may be no where near this range, even at a random AACBS school, if they aren't willing to move.

I'm currently getting a Ph.D. in Accounting (from a traditional Ph.D. programl). I can't think of any even halfway decent Accounting program that would hire a Walden grad as anything more than a clinical or adjunct. Heck, I can't think of any that even have those. If they are going to hire a clinical or an adjunct, they would be more likely to hire someone with a masters from a traditional school. I can't think of one paper published in the past few years in a B- or better journal from anyone from those schools.

You are right, even given the extreme shortage of PhDs in accounting, schools have not been willing to hired accounting grads of online programs as far as I know.

[untenured]

*cue Jaws music*

*looks out to horizon*

Something wicked this way comes.

Untenured