Israeli History at 60 - falsified
mouseman:
Quote from: solly on July 02, 2008, 09:55:33 AM
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Didn't Benny Morris call much of what Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, and Tom Segev wrote "fabricated
Morris and Pappe disagree primarily on matters of morality, not fact. In any case they are in agreement on the facts posted above.
When somebody describes history as "fabricated", they are not talking morality.
Quote from: solly on July 02, 2008, 09:55:33 AM
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To claim that the Palestinians are an "indigenous people" is the epitome of revisionist history.
The "claim" is borne out by DNA evidence
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"A new study shows that the genetic makeup of Jews and Arabs is almost identical, and that both groups share common prehistoric ancestors."
Tamara Traubman Ha'aretz (November 21, 2001).
"About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendents of at least three common prehistoric ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period, about 8,000 years ago. This is the finding of a new study conducted by an international team of scholars headed by Prof. Ariella Oppenheim, a senior geneticist in the Hebrew University's hematology department and at Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem.
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=636
You can't have it both ways, solly. If these results are correct, than your story of European colonial ousting indigenous peoples is quite debunked - Jews are an indigenous people of the area as well. Or do you think that that part of the study is false, and only the part pertaining to the Palestinians is correct. The fact that you only cited the Palestinian connection in your previous posts is intellectually dishonest.
In any case, the genetic results actually support large immigrations. Jews probably interbred with the peoples of the countries of the Diaspora, humans being what they are. An very similar genetic result for the Palestinians indicates a similar level of interbreeding with other groups, no?
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From the end of the 19th Century to 1948, their numbers were vastly augmented by emigrants from other parts of the Arabs world
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Justin McCarthy, Professor of History at the University of Louisville wrote:
"From analyses of rates of increase of the Muslim population of the three Palestinian sanjaks, one can say with certainty that Muslim immigration after the 1870s was small. Had there been a large group of Muslim immigrants their numbers would have caused an unusual increase in the population and this would have appeared in the calculated rate of increase from one registration list to another... Such an increase would have been easily noticed; it was not there.
The argument that Arab immigration somehow made up a large part of the Palestinian Arab population is thus statistically untenable. The vast majority of the Palestinian Arabs resident in 1947 were the sons and daughters of Arabs who were living in Palestine before modern Jewish immigration began. There is no reason to believe that they were not the sons and daughters of Arabs who had been in Palestine for many centuries."
http://www.amazon.com/Population-Palestine-History-Statistics-Institute/dp/0231071108
Here are the "Arab" population figures (in thousands). There does not appear to be a spike.
1860/411 1890/553 1914/738 1918/689 1931/860 1940/1,086 1946/1,308 1950/1,170 1960/1,340
McCarthy is the pet historian of the Turkish government. In that capacity he wrote "scholarly" tomes denying the Armenian Holocaust. Because of that, as a man with no academic integrity, I do not accept anything that McCarthy has to say about the Middle East.
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First, the Irgun and the Stern gang were attacking British Soldiers.
Even Wikipedia cites Irgun attacks against Arab targets resulted in at least 250 Arab deaths during 1936-1939.
That was in context of the Arab-Israeli struggle, which included just as many attacks by Arabs on Jews, not to mention organized pogroms by local Arab political groups on Jews.
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As far as I can tell, neither exploded a single bomb in London.
Not quite so, on September 3, 1947, a postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8) A total of 20 letter bombs were sent to high British governmental officials. Recipients included Ernest Bevan, Anthony Eden, Prime Minister Attlee and Winston Churchill.
http://www.doublestandards.org/unbunche.html
I would suggest that the assassination of Lord Moyne, British Deputy Resident Minister of State in Cairo On November 6, 1944, blowing up the British embassy in Rome in 1946, the assassination of the UN mediator Count Bernadotte, 1948, and the bombing of a British military train high in the Austrian Alps August 15, 1947 might also count for something.
All military targets, except for Count Bernadotte. Because of that, the Stern gang was disbanded and outlawed. Besides, were any of these in public? For example, a bomb in a bus station? I though so.
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I have yet to see, in the annals of terrorism, the equal of the bombing of the Patria with the resultant deaths of 260 Jewish immigrants - and the offer of collaboration with Nazi Germany was certainly not a good look.
http://www.washington-report.org/archives/May-June_2006/0605014.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
Um, let's see, you've never seen anything like that... Nothing like a an attempt to disable a boat which misfires.... Hmmmmm..... If that is the worst thing that you've seen in the annals of terror, than either you haven't read anything but the sports pages in the news for the last 50 years, or you are so obsessed with proving that the Israeli Jews are evil that you ignore all other news across the globe. But we've already established your academic dishonesty above.
As for an offer of collaboration with Nazi Germany, they at least were trying to save their own people. What justification did "great" American "heroes" like Lindbergh have? Not to mention the connection that the Nazis had with the elite of Great Britain, such as the Sir Oswald Mosley, and possibly the Duke of Windsor.
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Jews went to the Middle East specifically because they had no place in Europe.
This is incorrect. Many stayed in Europe, migrated to the U.S. and other countries, not to mention the The Jewish Autonomous Oblast created in Russia in 1934.
These assertions just support my claim that you knowledge of history is limited to the awful things that Jews have done over the years.
Let us start -
1. Jews HAD NO PLACE IN EUROPE!!!! Those that tried to return to their homes in Poland were attacked and often killed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944-1946. If you don't what was happening to Jews in the Soviet Union at that point, than you should actually read a book. As for the rest of East Europe - you're saying that Jews should return to places where many of their neighbors had just helped the Nazis deport them to Death Camps. Nice....
West Europe, hmmmm... Germany - that's a great place for them to go. France - De Gaulle was deporting any Jew who wasn't a citizen of France before the war. Italy? See above regarding Germany. Switzerland - They collaborated with the Nazis. Scandinavia - Most can't take more than a small number of refugees. Ditto USA. South America - Wonderful opportunity to meet up with the people responsible for the murder of your family. Africa? I thought you were against colonialism.
Ohhhh... Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the USSR... Do you know where it was? On the shores of the Pacific, of the far side of Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Russia_-_Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg
So, settling Jews in an area where they share a history and gentics with the local people is bad, but dropping them in the Far East is OK. I guess that would have gotten them out of your line of site.
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Palestinian Territories was mostly empty.
Others may read travel accounts if they wish, I prefer the likes of Ginsberg ( Ahad Ha'am ) an early Zionist who went to Palestine in 1891 specifically to purchase land:
" From abroad, we are accustomed to believe that Eretz Israel is presently almost totally desolate, an uncultivated desert, and that anyone wishing to buy land there can come and buy all he wants. But in truth it is not so. In the entire land, it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled; only sandy fields or stony hills, suitable at best for planting trees or vines and, even that after considerable work and expense in clearing and preparing them- only these remain unworked. ... Many of our people who came to buy land have been in Eretz Israel for months, and have toured its length and width, without finding what they seek"
Not to mention the Rabbis sent from Vienna who went to survey the land and cabled back "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man."
Most of the area where Jews bought land and settled until 1948 was not considered tillable. In fact 2/3 of the area of the State of Israel after 1948 was desert.
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See the population statistics above.
See my remarks about the source.
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there are millions of Jews and Palestinians in that area and they will have to live together
At last here is something we can agree on. I consider the single state solution as the only viable option.
It would be the best solution, but it is not viable. Too much antipathy and accumulated hatred on both sides, which is not helped by people like you trying to fabricate a history that pictures Jews as evil, conniving, selfish, untrustworthy, and, most importantly, as a people who have no right to exist, and no right to their country.
In general, the general tone of your arguments is that Jews should have no country, or if they do, it should be far away from you (the east coast of Russia, for example). Do Jews bother you somehow? Too pushy, aggressive, arrogant? All are true, but they do not fit in the American handbook of "How a Minority Should Look and Act". As was and is the case in Europe, the Right Wing hate Jews because they are successful and demonstrate that an "outsider" can beat them at their own game. The Left hates Jews because they refuse to conform the the norms of a minority: they should look ethnic, should suffer nobly, need help, and should look up in gratitude to the wonderful guilt-ridden middle class white person. Under no circumstances should they ever succeed without laws passed by the Left.
catarin:
There are people still alive who are eyewitnesses to the number of Arabs in Palestine when the Jews founded their state in 1948. I haven't read any books on this but I understand the Arab population was generally sparse, and it was only later that the large number of Arabs arrived.
The Jews put fertile top soil on much of the unarible land, a tremendous effort, and when that paid off, there were lush gardens, farm fields, orchards, trees, a beautiful greening of the desert, and I understand that is when the most Arabs came looking for jobs.
I don't quite understand the reference to Benny Morris. In a New Yorker article some weeks back, he had totally changed his opinion about the Arabs and is now in full support of the Jews. Can Palestinians be regarded as an indigenous people if they only arrived in Israel in the 7th century? No. There is not one shred, sherd, body, dwelling or evidence that says early occupancy. After Mohammed's death, the Muslim hordes conquered Jerusalem just as they did all the other cultures in the Middle East. One Muslim said we can't hold that against them as they were "just nation-building". Then why are tyrants still killing Muslims according to laws 1300 years old? Make a wrong move and they will chop you up. (The way to stop this is to give all Arab/Muslims Social Security benefits. Then if they chop a guy's hands off, they have to pay him for being handicapped.)
The Jews and Arabs living in Israel have a similar DNA makeup, but not so similar to the Arabs in Arabia. There is European DNA in the Palestinian record, too. The early Jews were probably made up of a lot of different people living in the area. Maybe they were all Jews at one time. But the Islamic religion as practiced by renegades is to blame here for the troubles.
pyshnov:
If you look at the DNA carefully, I mean very carefully, you inevitably, I mean inevitably, come to that nonsense which catarin and some others write here.
The same of course happen when you make a careful analysis of Chamberlain and Lord Rothschild.
These things are irrelevant, they are history, and they can only serve as a distraction today. They cannot give us the clue to the way of solving the problem, they are part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
Israel claims the right to the territory a) from the UN decision and b) from God's promise. The first had no right to make the decision, the second cannot be held responsible for its consequences.
"Jews had no place where to live after WWII"? Russians, Ukrainians also had no place, it was all a ruin. Jews were fighting with Russians, French and others; why they had to look for another country? I am sick and tired of these idiotic arguments designed to make Jews different. Had the Gypsies and homosexuals a right to another country? They were also persecuted by the people whom they considered for all the times to be their people. Had Jews sworn not to live in the same country with Germans? Why then Jews are immigrating to Germany in large numbers with the different DNA and with the UN decision and the God's promise in their pocket?
Jewish legitimate desire to live in Palestine had religious reasons (for those Jews for whom it did matter; for many it did not matter). But, the new Zionist movement had a secular, political basis. For the first it would be enough just to pray there, and therefore they did not need a separate state and could live there as a part of the population. The second had illegitimate ambitions infringing upon the rights of Arabs.
There were no clashed between religious Jews and Moslems in previous 1000+ years of history.
Many Israelis with whom I spoke told that before the UN interference there were few clashes with the Arabs (despite of the fast increasing Jewish immigration!), and that, in fact, the UN decision and "creation" of Israel was a disaster for Jewish community. It was not the presence of Jews but the Jewish rule that prompted all the wars.
That is the relevant history. Don't paint Arabs as anti-Semites, please.
catarin:
To Pyshnov
The views of reasonable people can differ. This is my belief:
The Jews occupy a very special place in religious history. They are the source of our (Christians) religious beliefs. Our beliefs are based on their beliefs. Further, the Jews did not die out like almost every ancient culture. They are still here today. Shouldn't that say something? Jesus loved his fellow Jews and was preaching to encourage them to get along better. (see the writings of John Dominic Crosson, expert on the historical Jesus.)
Early Christians had their own points to make and wanted to distance themselves from Judaism as much as they could. I believe Jesus would be angry about this. After 2000 years the Roman Catholics apologized for persecuting the Jews...
Muslims, just as dependent on the belief of Jews, are way off base on their so-called rights to the Holy Land. Some seem to want to top the Jews and Christians in theology no matter what, to make themselves first in the lineage instead of third. They have backed themselves into a corner over their teachings, never dreaming an invention would arrive to let each person enlighten himself. Don't forget in Genesis God promised to Hagar that her and Ishmael's descendents would inherit a huge amount of land. Which they did. Now they want what God gave to the Jews?
pyshnov:
catarin, I think you can be a good, loving mother. But, you have to forget politics and stuff. When you said: "They have backed themselves into a corner over their teachings, never dreaming an invention would arrive to let each person enlighten himself ", what invention did you have in mind? Television? DNA sequencing? O, did you have in mind candles?
Explain, please.
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