Israeli History at 60 - falsified
pyshnov:
catarin, several people almost ever day now spell my name correctly in google search.
Funny, you say: "I pity the Russians who lived their entire life spans never knowing anything other than Communism." In fact, even under communism, Russians had very broad education, better than in the West, not to speak of US. Practically all Western, classical and Eastern literature was translated, published and read in Russia. We could not cross the borders, that's true, and that accounts for many crazy moves we did when such opportunity suddenly appeared.
The book on Jewish history you should not miss is by Dubnov, written before the revolution; some additions were made later and it was re-published in two volumes.
I am not interested in "Palestinian youth who are hoping to sue Britain". Looks to me like distraction. As I said before, Britain and UN had no rights to shape Palestine.
My general view is that after UN decision Israel had to begin earning the right to exist. It was a delicate situation and it had to be handled with wisdom. Instead, Jews were preoccupied with one task - to show that they can be, as a nation, for the first time in modern history, brave solders. But, in fact, they only repeated the terrible mistake of Moses: instead of asking for what G-d already prepared for them, they went with the stick. As you know, the consequences for Moses were catastrophic. Now this story has been repeated. No matter how much blood is spilled, human losses are always forgotten, but, what is not forgotten is the borders on the ground. And Israel made the story of the borders much more memorable. Israel was ruled by savage fools and helped by degenerates from abroad who only cared for the tax shelters which they received through "donations". As I said before, Israel was turned into a cult. It has to be all turned back, unfortunately, at the most critical time. If it's not turned back, the next thread we will discuss may well be "Israeli History ended at 60".
I cannot forget the view from the hill where I lived in Jerusalem: an Arab willa, the man in long white cloth, his wife in black cloth, a white dog, probably a couple of sheep (don't remember exactly). Israel sill had, very recently, an absolutely peacefull by their very nature neighbours, you cannot imagine another such un-warlike people as Palestinian Arabs! Every morning a bus would bring in a group of Arabs who would start shaping large blocks of white stone from Judea for Jewish houses... What a dumb idea it was to go with the stick! Just recently I read that this village was destroyed, blown up.
robert_smithson:
Quote from: pyshnov on June 30, 2008, 02:21:56 PM
catarin, several people almost ever day now spell my name correctly in google search.
Despite risk of creating distraction from intriguing discussion, fact that you would criticize others' inability to note obvious language discrepancies is ironic one, no?
infopri:
I know I'm going to regret posting to this thread, but I can resist no longer.
Quote from: pyshnov on June 30, 2008, 02:21:56 PM
Instead, Jews were preoccupied with one task - to show that they can be, as a nation, for the first time in modern history, brave solders.
The Jewish Israelis were preoccupied with being brave soldiers because they were surrounded by people who were actively trying to destroy them.
Quote from: pyshnov on June 30, 2008, 02:21:56 PM
But, in fact, they only repeated the terrible mistake of Moses: instead of asking for what G-d already prepared for them, they went with the stick. As you know, the consequences for Moses were catastrophic.
I can't imagine what you're referring to here. According to the story, Moses kept asking the Pharoah to free the Jewish slaves and let them leave Egypt. The Pharoah kept refusing until finally the tenth plague sent by God (death of the firstborn) changed his mind.
Moses did not live to see the Promised Land, but not because he "went with the stick." Learn the Jewish stories properly before you try to use them to support your anti-Semitic views.
Quote from: pyshnov on June 30, 2008, 02:21:56 PM
you cannot imagine another such un-warlike people as Palestinian Arabs!
Do you have no access to world news??
P.S. I find it interesting that you talk about "Palestinian" Arabs, but use no similar qualifying adjective when talking about Israeli Jews. Apparently, all Jews are one and the same to you.
solly:
Quote
The Jewish Israelis were preoccupied with being brave soldiers because they were surrounded by people who were actively trying to destroy them.
One could argue, of course, that an indigenous people forced from their homes by a militarily superior ethnic minority using violence to create a race-based State in their homeland, might well have just cause to react violently.
Israeli historians Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev and many others have presented overwhelming evidence that this was indeed the case. Their view is supported by many statements made by Ben-Gurion, Begin, Dayan and contemporaries. The myth of "poor peace-loving Israel" is precisely what pyshnov refers to as "falsified history". Today that myth is supported exclusively by pseudo-scholars for reasons quite distinct from scholarship.
It is ironic that today, Palestinians are branded as a violent people when the activities of the radical minority in their midst pale into insignificance when compared with the activities of the Irgun, Stern Gang during the Mandate and the IDF operations against them today.
infopri:
Quote from: solly on June 30, 2008, 07:52:40 PM
Quote
The Jewish Israelis were preoccupied with being brave soldiers because they were surrounded by people who were actively trying to destroy them.
One could argue, of course, that an indigenous people forced from their homes by a militarily superior ethnic minority using violence to create a race-based State in their homeland, might well have just cause to react violently.
I was not thinking only, or even primarily, of the Arab Palestinians. Israel was surrounded by other Arab nations (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.) all intent on pushing Israel into the ocean.
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