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[11179408]

After making some campus visits, I've narrowed down my school choices to two in particular. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding, so I'm hoping for some guidance in deciding which factors are the most important when choosing a graduate school. I'm choosing between two programs in an interdisciplinary field in the humanities. They're both Ivies, so both are pretty well endowed and the packages are more or less the same. The major difference in funding is that one school (School A) is offering summer funding before I even matriculate (for language study), while the other (School B) provides summer funding for only four summers total (so two summers less I'd be receiving funding, unless I did more teaching).  School A has slightly more funding to go to conferences and the like. Also School A requires basically only one semester of teaching, while school B requires three years (one course per semester).


School B - This school has a TON of professors who share my research interests, and are known for this particular interest. This is important here because students form a dissertation committee (of three or four members) rather than having a single adviser. My particular research interest is NOT marketable, so students are reminded to branch out into another research topic during their career. The research topics these students chose were less interesting to me than those at School A. However, students are still genuinely interested in my research interest, and they often host conferences with really interesting topics.  They have an unmatchable intellectual community and I think my cohort here would really help me out. They might get a little *too* involved in grad student government and conference planning however - but I doubt I would get too involved in it.

School A - There are less professors who I know I could work with and who share my exact research interests, but there are enough who are very knowledgeable on the subjects I'd like to study. (three, and with two prospective hires I'd like to work with) I was more inspired by the creativity of the professors here.  The students who had my research interest when coming in seemed to have branched out into areas that interest me (since they too acknowledged how undesirable this particular interest is on the market). The structure at this school emphasizes that the student needs only one adviser, so I would need to find less people to work with. There is one professor in particular who was VERY interested in my work and could see the parallels between our approaches.  This professor is known for being difficult to work with because she tends to draw a line between those who "get it" and those who don't. I think I could work with her after meeting her, but I'm not sure. I did get the feeling that another of the professors I'd like to work with doesn't tolerate certain approaches as well, so I wonder if the department in general is slightly intolerant.  In fact, other professors in the field that I've come across liked to take hits on this department in general, calling them old-fashioned, rigid and boring. At the same time, this school's PhDs are more in demand than School B's PhDs, although only slightly. I wonder if there's some professional jealousy going on here, because this school likes to buy up well-established professors in the field. Finally, this school doesn't really have much of a community and some of the grad students expressed disappointment in not having a "home base" at the university.  This is symptomatic of my field (and this concern was expressed at the other university, in spite of their tightly knit intellectual community), but I think this department is extreme in that. There is more emphasis on undergrads at this university than at the first, and grad student life isn't really existent. Luckily, there are several metropolises that are close by, so there is always an escape. A lot of students choose to commute to this university once they are done with their coursework and live in the nearby cities. The department is very scattered, in other words. There is the option to take courses at nearby universities (that are also very well known in the field), and to work with professors at those universities, so there are definitely a lot of options if I can't find exactly what I'm looking for at this university in particular.

So.. how important is your cohort to your work? Is quantity of professors I'd like to work with more important than my general "feel" of whether or not I'd be interested in a professor's research? How behind will three years of teaching put me in my research - or is it a drawback that the other university has so little teaching? Is it better to be in a closed environment (School B) or an open one with exchange networks from one excellent university to another (School A)? I know that some of these depend on the person, but having never been in either of these situations, I'm not sure which would work out the best for me, and which will ultimately work out best for the job market. Any advice anyone has would be much appreciated!

[prephd]

Congrats on having such a tough choice to make.

I'm in a commuter cohort, and I really like it. I wouldn't function in a department where everyone was too close in proximity to everyone else. Most of us in the group are married, mid-career professionals, so we're not too worried about the department having a social life.

If you're younger, moving without the social support of a family, a closer-knit department may be a better fit for you.

[carebearstare]

Even a school where there is a community among doctoral students, you can get in a weird cohort where folks don't like each other/don't gel. So it really, really depends on the mix of personalities. The same goes for faculty. It's good to have a lot of people you could work with, but you really only need one person who gets you and supports you to make your life worth it.

I personally would be very cautious about aiming to work with someone who had a reputation as difficult to work with. The lore is generally true, and it can make your life miserable.

[pink_]

School B sounds like the better bet to me.
School A has several red flags, including the difficult to work with advisor.  Jr hires can be terrific second or third readers, but you shouldn't count on having them chair your dissertation in case they aren't around for the conclusion of it.  The better bet is the program with more options. Poaching happens (when another school hires away your advisor), retirements happen, illness and old-age happen.  Buses happen.  If you hang all your hopes on working with one or two people, you could be in for a rather rude awakening when either they decide that you are one of the ones who "don't get it" or they leave for greener pastures (or they don't get tenure).

Just my $.02

[11179408]

Thanks for the advice. Just wanted to say, they're not hiring junior faculty - they're hiring two really big names in the field that I could work with. One they should know about within the next week or two, while they've offered the job to the other and should know within a month whether she's accepted it.

I think that School A produces the brightest and most independent scholars in the field - not to say that School B is not close behind. I'm just really tempted by School A because of this.

[gaeta]

School A has slightly more funding to go to conferences and the like. Also School A requires basically only one semester of teaching, while school B requires three years (one course per semester).

OP, do keep in mind that you will need to have more than one semester of teaching experience when you go on the job market. Applying for T-T positions with only one semester under your belt could raise lots of red flags and eliminate you from consideration from any position that is not at a research-oriented university.

[11179408]

Yes, that is very true. From what I can tell, most of the grads do end up teaching more to get more experience - but they teach discussion sections more often than their own courses. I do see it as a disadvantage, but at the same time, three years seems like a lot of years to teach.

[gaeta]

Yes, that is very true. From what I can tell, most of the grads do end up teaching more to get more experience - but they teach discussion sections more often than their own courses. I do see it as a disadvantage, but at the same time, three years seems like a lot of years to teach.

Three years is not a lot of years to teach. I am finishing up right now and have taught one course each semester every year (with the exception of a couple of years that I had non-teaching fellowships) during my time in graduate school. These were not discussion sections but real courses and that is noticed when you apply for jobs and some of the first questions you are asked is "So, tell me about your teaching experience? What courses have you taught? How do you deal with [insert difficult teaching situation here] when you are in the classroom?"

In my opinion, it is important to have real-world answers to these questions that are based on experience and not just on what you read in some teaching methods book.

[pink_]

Yes, that is very true. From what I can tell, most of the grads do end up teaching more to get more experience - but they teach discussion sections more often than their own courses. I do see it as a disadvantage, but at the same time, three years seems like a lot of years to teach.

Yes, but assuming that you plan to get an academic job, teaching will be a substantial part of your life.

[jossfritz]

I would not worry at all about the other graduate students, what they are working on, etc. You're entering a program of study, not a cult.

Embrace teaching. It's what you'll be doing for most of your life, I imagine. It may slow you down at dissertation time, but it's also important on the job market, and I have found that when I teach texts from my specialty, I'm able to generate different ideas from what I would generate outside of class. For me it's both my career and a valuable outlet for research.

Another factor to keep in mind especially in humanities fields: it's great that you are already focused on matching what you want to do with what professors are doing, that you even have an idea of what you might want to do. Still, you're going to go through a lot of seminars (a key difference between US and UK programs), etc. and you may very well change your mind about your own focus, say two or three years from now. Moreover, professors come and professors go. Sometimes a prof. will be on leave for more than a year; sometimes a prof. will leave for a different school or become an administrator; sometimes a prof. will just be cranky and tired of advising, or controlling, looking to produce disciples rather than independent-minded scholars; sometimes professors pass away before they can sign off on your prospectus. Moreover, a program that produces too much of the same kind of scholar effectively undermines market prospects--if you're stuck competing against a legion of grad students from your very same program in your very same subspecialty, you're in trouble--suddenly letters of recommendation all from the same 3 or 4 prof's get compared in ways letters would never get compared, etc. What's placement like at the two schools?

So, go for the school that offers the most flexibility, the most options in your field. That is, if one school has more prof's in your general area of study, that school will offer you the most stability and options as you go through the program.

Good luck!

[11179408]

Thanks for everyone's advice on teaching. I do look forward to teaching, but I worry about these people in the humanities who spend forever working on their PhDs.

I definitely agree that I may change my mind on what I would want to do, which is why I'm trying to go for overall "feel" of professor work rather than subject area. I really just want professors who are passionate, creative, and knowledgeable in a variety of aspects in the field, and I felt like School A had more of that. They also have more variety in general within the department, while School B has a lot of the same thing (just this same thing happens to be what I think I want to work in, the unmarketable research interest).

Placement is at about 60-70% at both schools. I think School A may have slightly better placement, but it's hard to know where exactly these numbers come from. If my field were ever actually ranked, I think both schools would be ranked in the top 6 or 7 programs at the very least. The department at School A that I would take a lot of courses in (since I'd be in an interdisciplinary program... this wouldn't be my "home" department but I'd be able to work with everyone in the department) is basically ranked number 1 in the world according to some, but School B is also very well known in that department and I think technically has better placement (80% or so).

[carebearstare]

One more point:

I notice you mention that you worry about folks who spend forever working on their Ph.Ds. One thing a faculty member said to me at the very beginning of my own doctoral study was that, for graduate students, life often gets in the way. This is *very* true. I'm not sure how old you are or how long you've been out of undergrad, but I can say that for every person I've seen go through my program in the years that it took me to get my doctorate, that has been true. Marriages, divorces, babies, ill parents, personal health issues, monetary crises, you name it. So it's not just teaching or school responsibilities that make doctoral work rough. On top of all that stuff, you inevitably will just have more life drama during those years, and some of it may take precedence over your studies.

The above is the #1 reason I'd say that your overall life happiness matters greatly and needs to be factored in. Is the place you are moving to going to livable for you for next half-decade or longer? Once you're done, can you potentially see yourself living there a few more years while you're on the market, if you don't get out right away? I was lucky in that I didn't move from the city I was already living to start in my grad program, but for the folks who did, the location was also a major issue. A number of people who didn't make it through faulted in large part because they couldn't handle/didn't like living where we were.

[roarheels]

OP, I faced a similar decision 2 years ago and chose quite poorly in retrospect. Sadly, it was due to the things I could not foresee that were individual to the department. I narrowed it down to two schools with big offers and summer funding, one Ivy and one Ivy equivalent. I chose based on the factors you listed, advisor, funding, department, grad students attitude etc...Now that I have arrived and completed nearly two years, I have come to find out that my department simply chose not to tell me the truth. Our promised offices never materialized, summer funding guaranteed is not so guaranteed (you can only get it in my  program in years 3, 4, and 5, and only for overseas travel). Courses at and consortia with other universities, I am thinking of a particular one we have, are impossible to use given the constraints of my coursework and the need to fulfill a very specific set of departmental + subfield requirements. I found out last week that I will be the last grad student ever in my department doing my particular sub field as they have decided to move it to another department (only I do not get to go). Oh yeah and my advisor who promised that he would be at the Uni for the duration (he is of retirement age) won a massive fellowship that will remove him for the next three years. Be very careful who you choose in the end, as there is so much they never tell you.

[navelgazer]

Thanks for everyone's advice on teaching. I do look forward to teaching, but I worry about these people in the humanities who spend forever working on their PhDs.

In my experience, teaching is one reason but NOT the primary reason people don't complete their degrees on time. A lot depends on the kind of teaching you do, for both job applications and time to degree. If your department has a humane approach to teaching and you prioritize completion and your own research, shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, not getting opportunities to teach can be a big obstacle in your way.

[larryc]

Are these American Studies programs?