• Saturday, February 18, 2012
February 18, 2012, 02:14:01 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with your Chronicle username and password
News: For all you tweeters, follow The Chronicle on Twitter.
 
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
  Print  
Author Topic: Call yourself Herr Dr So-and-so, go to jail  (Read 6635 times)
qrypt
Qryptacular & not really a Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 5,210

the great vampire squid round the face of humanity


« on: March 14, 2008, 07:10:35 AM »

American PhDs apparently aren't as good as German ones, and so if you refer to yourself as Dr Whatshisface in Germany, you get hauled in for interrogation:

Washington Post Story

I also like the bit about how having 2 PhDs means you call yourself Herr Dr Dr Whatshisface.  Dummköpfe...
Logged

"I'm tired of being your love slave!"

"Does that mean I'm not going to get my coffee?"
mischt
Senior member
****
Posts: 256


« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2008, 07:21:19 AM »

Actually, this article misunderstands the practice in place in Germany regarding academic qualifications:
If I get my doctorate (Dr. phil.) in Germany, I will be referred to as Dr. Mischt; if I got a doctorate in the USA or Canada (PhD), I will be referred to as Mischt, PhD.
You don't "lose" your title.
Logged
qrypt
Qryptacular & not really a Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 5,210

the great vampire squid round the face of humanity


« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2008, 07:29:31 AM »

Well, okay, but I think the point is, how could anyone possibly care so much about the difference that getting it wrong amounts to a criminal offence?? 
Logged

"I'm tired of being your love slave!"

"Does that mean I'm not going to get my coffee?"
normative_
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 10,840

Check, please.


« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 07:35:02 AM »

how could anyone possibly care so much about the difference that getting it wrong amounts to a criminal offence?? 

By being an anal kvetch. It's unfortunately common in German academia.

Actually, this article misunderstands the practice in place in Germany regarding academic qualifications:
If I get my doctorate (Dr. phil.) in Germany, I will be referred to as Dr. Mischt; if I got a doctorate in the USA or Canada (PhD), I will be referred to as Mischt, PhD.
You don't "lose" your title.

Not quite. Colloquially, you're called Dr. Mischt when you have a Ph.D. And precisely that is illegal.
I've seen the lawyers go after someone for that. It ain't pretty.

It's protectionism, plain and simple. These people are out to punish foreigners for trying to enter the German job market.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 07:38:41 AM by normative » Logged

Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
mischt
Senior member
****
Posts: 256


« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2008, 09:27:18 AM »

...colloquially, yes, but officially (as in on websites listing scholars contributing to research projects) the practice I mentioned above tends to be used.
But I do agree that legal action is totally over the top.
There is a great deal of protectionist activity in every country, though, with regards to qualifications, on all kinds of levels.
Rest assured though, that we colloquially continue to accept that people with doctorates from other countries indeed do have doctorates!
Logged
vortex
Senior member
****
Posts: 421

zen


« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2008, 09:33:59 AM »

Well, okay, but I think the point is, how could anyone possibly care so much about the difference that getting it wrong amounts to a criminal offence?? 

It could have been somebody who had a specific problem with these guys or just somebody who thinks the (Nazi era) law is stupid and should be changed and decided that actions speak louder than words.
Logged

It is in this fathom-long body endowed with mind that the beginning and end of this world are made known. -- The Buddha
normative_
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 10,840

Check, please.


« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2008, 09:42:00 AM »

The problem Mischt, is that people really are sued over this stuff. A friend of mine was given a nasty call by a lawyer's office two years ago over just this sort of thing. She had to back down and have her Dr. title recognised first. And she didn't even do it. A university website published her as Dr., and the phones were ringing within a week.

We're talking lawyers, with the power to sue you into oblivion and the people behind them who want to get rid of competition. Anything else is totally naive.

And the thing is, no one, I mean no one on this planet, refers to someone with a Ph.D. in oral conversation (and introductions) as Person X, Ph.D. They say Dr. X. That is why the German law is completely retarded and the idea that it's a criminal offence is a crime in itself.

I read with interest that this has been an offence since the 1930s. It wouldn't surprise me if it were a Nazi innovation. It wouldn't be the first that is still in place.

I had to go after this, for the sake of interest.
The German Criminal Code provides for jail sentences of one year, if you're only found guilty of abusing your title:

The starting point is under § 132, 'impersonation' (Amtsanmaßung), under Section 7, Criminal Offences Against Public Order.

To give you an idea of what this section deals with: being a member of a terrorist organisation, breaking parole, and other good stuff.

§ 132a criminalises the use of foreign title without German accreditation.
Accreditation is covered by the regional governments, and therefore not uniform.
This criminal offence is satisfied by even having Dr. on your letter box, or on your business card.

Quote
§ 132a  Mißbrauch von Titeln, Berufsbezeichnungen und Abzeichen

   (1) Wer unbefugt

   1. inländische oder ausländische Amts- oder Dienstbezeichnungen, akademische Grade, Titel oder öffentliche Würden führt,

   2. die Berufsbezeichnung Arzt, Zahnarzt, Psychologischer Psychotherapeut, Kinder- und Jugendlichenpsychotherapeut, Psychotherapeut, Tierarzt, Apotheker, Rechtsanwalt, Patentanwalt, Wirtschaftsprüfer, vereidigter Buchprüfer, Steuerberater oder Steuerbevollmächtigter führt,

   3. die Bezeichnung öffentlich bestellter Sachverständiger führt oder

   4. inländische oder ausländische Uniformen, Amtskleidungen oder Amtsabzeichen trägt,

wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

   (2) Den in Absatz 1 genannten Bezeichnungen, akademischen Graden, Titeln, Würden, Uniformen, Amtskleidungen oder Amtsabzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.
...

But also, you may be accused of fraud in connection with this, carrying a sentence of up to 5 years. This would certainly apply if a hiring decision is made, as others would be harmed. Lawsuits in German hiring situations are not uncommon, certainly not the threat of lawsuits. I know two academics who have gone through this in the last year. Not with the Dr. title, but other things.

Quote
§ 263 StGB
Betrug

(1) Wer in der Absicht, sich oder einem Dritten einen rechtswidrigen Vermögensvorteil zu verschaffen, das Vermögen eines anderen dadurch beschädigt, daß er durch Vorspiegelung falscher oder durch Entstellung oder Unterdrückung wahrer Tatsachen einen Irrtum erregt oder unterhält, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

There is another aspect, that involves having a false diploma, again 5 years or a fine:

Quote
§ 267
Urkundenfälschung

(1) Wer zur Täuschung im Rechtsverkehr eine unechte Urkunde herstellt, eine echte Urkunde verfälscht oder eine unechte oder verfälschte Urkunde gebraucht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

In these cases, since several paragraphs apply, the penalties applicable are the hardest, and a financial penalty can be assigned alongside the jail sentence:

Quote
§ 52
Tateinheit

(1) Verletzt dieselbe Handlung mehrere Strafgesetze oder dasselbe Strafgesetz mehrmals, so wird nur auf eine Strafe erkannt.

(2) Sind mehrere Strafgesetze verletzt, so wird die Strafe nach dem Gesetz bestimmt, das die schwerste Strafe androht. Sie darf nicht milder sein, als die anderen anwendbaren Gesetze es zulassen.

(3) Geldstrafe kann das Gericht unter den Voraussetzungen des § 41 neben Freiheitsstrafe gesondert verhängen.

§ 41 handles financial penalties in case of financial damages: 

Quote
§ 41
Geldstrafe neben Freiheitsstrafe

Hat der Täter sich durch die Tat bereichert oder zu bereichern versucht, so kann neben einer Freiheitsstrafe eine sonst nicht oder nur wahlweise angedrohte Geldstrafe verhängt werden, wenn dies auch unter Berücksichtigung der persönlichen und wirtschaftlichen Verhältnisse des Täters angebracht ist. Dies gilt nicht, wenn das Gericht nach § 43a eine Vermögensstrafe verhängt.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 09:42:40 AM by normative » Logged

Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
francie_
The Really Cheerful
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 3,815

The Voice of Reason


« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2008, 09:51:05 AM »

I read with interest that this has been an offence since the 1930s. It wouldn't surprise me if it were a Nazi innovation. It wouldn't be the first that is still in place.

I wouldn't be surprised either.  This law no doubt has a very sordid, anti-Semitic history.  Thanks for tracking down the statute, Aandsdean!  It's incredulous that using the title "Dr." would be a threat to public order.  But then again, we know how dearly the Germans love Order.

Now, which 200 universities are on Germany's "okay" list?  Inquiring minds want to know!
Logged

donstefano
Senior member
****
Posts: 814


« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2008, 09:52:28 AM »

Nomative, this art 132a (1) 1 does not really mention accreditation. So would it also imply that you can't use a foreign dr title in Germany (so not a phd?).


I actually understand much of the logic of these rules, you don't want everyone to just start using titles they don't have- it's just that the application is somewhat too strict. And I don't believe it's protectionism - probably it's rigidity - they just forgot to change the legislation - there are plenty of laws that are no longer entirely relevant. Anyway, the German system has enough other ways to protect it's academic job market - for a start the procedure takes so much time that most foreign competitors will give up before the end of the procedure ;-)

« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 09:53:26 AM by donstefano » Logged
kaysixteen
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 5,434


« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2008, 09:54:54 AM »

Es waere besser, wenn alle die deutsche Gesetze, die aus der Nazizeit staemmt, aus dem Fenster weggeworfen wuerden.
Logged
normative_
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 10,840

Check, please.


« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2008, 09:57:45 AM »

<looks in mirror> Nope, don't look like Aandsdean...

That reminds me. The law that prevents you from changing your name in Germany is a Nazi invention, designed to prevent Jews from hiding their destiny as charcoal.

And politicians and bureaucrats still defend that Nazi law today. Vigorously.

Logged

Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
donstefano
Senior member
****
Posts: 814


« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2008, 10:04:22 AM »

I think the reference to Nazi law is unfair. Most countries have laws organising the use of titles, including academic titles.
Logged
normative_
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 10,840

Check, please.


« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2008, 10:04:55 AM »

Nomative, this art 132a (1) 1 does not really mention accreditation. So would it also imply that you can't use a foreign dr title in Germany (so not a phd?).

It says that you may not use a title without permission.  Permission is granted by a degree-granting institution in Germany or by the Ministry of Education in the state in which you live. That costs money, by the way, and is time consuming.

I had to go that route to avoid problems when I worked there. Like my friend, they went ahead and printed cards with Dr. on them, realised their mistake, and then had to get the relevant Minister and cabinet to approve it.

I actually understand much of the logic of these rules, you don't want everyone to just start using titles they don't have- it's just that the application is somewhat too strict.

The problem is that there is no conception of a frivilous lawsuit in these circumstances that can be dismissed.

You're right, of course, that Germany is a closed shop, at least in many disciplines (the social sciences more than the natural sciences), and that it really shouldn't be necessary. But if you try to come into the market, even for personal reasons (I'm married to a German), then you may be in for a fight.
Logged

Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
normative_
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 10,840

Check, please.


« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2008, 10:07:56 AM »

I think the reference to Nazi law is unfair. Most countries have laws organising the use of titles, including academic titles.

I think the Germans are unfair in how they deal with foreigners in the academic market. The point is not whether there should be rules against using a title illegally. The question is at what threshold, and what effects it has on the people who are regulated. The current system raises very high barriers against foreign Ph.Ds. Try to get one accredited out of Eastern Europe.

Is the law a Nazi invention? I don't know. But as any legal scholar will tell you, the context in which a law was passed, what they were thinking when they wrote specific rules in, *does* matter.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 10:09:24 AM by normative » Logged

Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
normative_
Distinguished Senior Member
*****
Posts: 10,840

Check, please.


« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2008, 10:09:54 AM »

Es waere besser, wenn alle die deutsche Gesetze, die aus der Nazizeit staemmt, aus dem Fenster weggeworfen wuerden.

With the people who support them, yeah.
Logged

Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!