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[sikora]

Has anyone thought of emmigrating from the US?  Where would you go?  I was thinking about Holland tonight.  But I have family in Belgium who think Americans work too hard, and that the mini-diaspora of our family should return to Belgium (and nearby Slavic regions). 

There's an irony here, because the family in Belgium are all war refugees or kids of war refugees of Slavic background, not Flemish or French.  Some of us went to the US, some went to Belgium, one went to Australia and was never heard from again.  Another went to South America, riding from Brussels to Oostend on a bicycle wearing two fur coats.

But anyway, my brother thinks about emmigrating all the time, in good part because he is a pacifist. I am too, military service notwithstanding.

What do you all think?

[sciencephd]

Are we talking realistic consideration or fantasy ?

If there is another Republican term, I would like to emigrate.  Perhaps Canada.  I'd be interested in working in Asia, but can't quite imagine spending the rest of my life there, plus its probably not very realistic.   Australia would be kinda cool.

[magistra]

I have a friend who recently moved to Belgium (marriage).  She can't find a job.  She's in an extremely tight field (not academia), but it's been hard.  Plus there's the language barrier -- French and Flemish needed, at least to some extent.  She feels pretty isolated.  It's expensive, too, though not as bad as other parts of Europe.  The weak dollar doesn't help any, but if you can get a job (and legal status) over there, why not?  At least for a while.

[expatinuk]

Most Belgians that I know actually work in France.

[magistra]

My Belgium-dwelling friend does a variant on that -- her husband moved to Belgium because he couldn't afford to stay in Paris.   He's an artist, so work location isn't an issue, though I believe he does try to show mostly in Paris.  It's only 2 hours by train, and since it's all EU now, there are no worries about border crossings, work permits, etc.

[danny_boy]

The people who study such issues make a distinction between emigration/immigration and long-term sojourners.  This distinction hinges on the underlying mentality of the individual.  An emigrant leaves with the intention (or understanding) of never returning to the homeland.  Sometimes this is by choice other times it's forced upon one by war, politics, or economics.  Sojourners always plan to return at heart.  They may end of living their entire lives "abroad" (and yes living in the is "living abroad" for some people) but they alway talk about someday "going home."

A key litmus test is where you imagine your children will BE from.   I'm from the US and my wife's from Mexico.  My daughter was born in Kuwait and my sons were born in Oman.  But it was always clear that they were, in some important way, from America.  It was never questioned (least of all by my wife) that our children would live their lives as Americans and not as Mexicans or Japanese.  I like living in Japan, but would not want my children to be FROM Japan and have to live as Japanese. 

And you don't have to go to another country to feel this dilemma.  Personally, I could take a job just about anywhere in the US.  But there are quite a few parts of the US, I wouldn't particularly want my children to be FROM -- in the sense of accepting local mores.  Actually, this is no longer a problem for me since my youngest is already 17 and the idea that they are "Californians" is probably thoroughly imprinted on them.

[dolljepopp]

I live in one EU country (not Belgium) and will be moving to a different one (also not Belgium) within the next couple of years when SO and I set up house. I left with the full intention of staying for as long as possible, likely forever, provided I could support myself doing something I liked, etc. Because my dissertation subject is on a local topic, it made the actual move more justifiable and more feasible.

I do speak the national language (if not the local dialect, but at least half of the nationals who live here don't either). That is a biggie. One can live here comfortably without it (although the immigration authorities will send you to language classes), but it is much easier if you do, and working -- even as an English teacher -- is very nearly impossible without it.. The bureaucrats with whom I've dealt do not speak English.

I'd spent a lot of time here over the previous few years and had friends and contacts already, so loneliness wasn't a problem. (And I hated the last place I lived in the US, so no tears were shed about leaving it.)

I don't know what the Belgian requirements are for immigration. I have a number of friends in Belgium, although only one is an American expat and he has dual citizenship (Irish grandfather), so he didn't have any real immigration issues. He lives in Wallonia and speaks French. The rest of my friends there are Belgian citizens or English or Irish expats.

I think danny boy is right about how one sees oneself or plans to see oneself. I'll always be an American, of course, but I don't seek out to live in a faux America here -- something I see a lot of Americans do. I've never even been to the American cultural centre. Though it's not by design, none of my local friends are American. (I do have American friends in Europe.) When I am out and about, I speak the local language and am sometimes asked if I'm English, but even more often assumed to be from a neighbouring country. (Apparently my accent in their language sounds like the folks next door...) I never hide that I am an American, but I don't lead with it either. I think expats that come to a new country and expect it to be more-or-less the same as "back home" set themselves up for huge disappointment. (And this is true regardless of nationality -- I know many English expats who groan regularly about how awful this country is. Why the hell they don't move back I don't know.)

This is now my "home", to the extent that I have one, but I acknowledge that I have never had the same kinds of attachment to places that many people do. I hated the part of the US where I grew up, good loving family notwithstanding. I loved Minnesota, although it wasn't my childhood "home". (When people ask where I'm from, I usually say, "Minnesota, sort of.")

Can you manage an extended visit with relatives in Belgium? A tourist visa in most EU countries is good for three months. You can get a decent sense of a place in that amount of time. You couldn't work, of course -- at least not with official permission -- but you might get a better idea whether you'd like it or not.

I miss some things -- certain television shows, good peanut butter, snow, BASEBALL! -- but generally I've no urge to go back. Career-wise, I will be giving up some opportunities (tt track, specifically), but my education will open (and has opened) some doors. At this point, no regrets.

I'd be happy to converse in more detail via PM.

[danny_boy]

I left with the full intention of staying for as long as possible, likely forever, provided I could support myself doing something I liked, etc.

During my "junior year abroad" experience (at a Germany university like hundreds if not thousands of other Americans) I swore I was going to never go back home, finish my degree in Germany (how unrealistic of me), speak only German, marry a German woman, and have German kids.

But somehow the stream-of-consciousness style journal that I kept suggested otherwise.  For example, there's one curious entry about how I was going to name my daughter "California Sunshine" and how she was going to be 100% pure Native American (as in "Injuns").  How that could be biologically possible apparently didn't occur to me.  Anyway by the end of the year I had mellowed a bit -- and had realized that the obsession was with the experience of living in another culture (any other culture) and not particularly German culture.

I'll always be an American, of course, but I don't seek out to live in a faux America here -- something I see a lot of Americans do.

You say you'll always BE an American.  In what sense?  I wasn't talking about those American expats who just have to have their Doritos and Ding Dongs or they can't be happy.  I'm also including people who make an effort to blend in, learn the language, and all of the bonding with the culture stuff.  But it's a kind of game.  They know deep down that they won't really stay forever.  In my 25 years of life in other countries, it's been my experience that the crucial factor is children when they get to be of high school age.  Sure it's "fun" to put your kids in a foreign elementary school and brag about how they are totally bilingual (for a 10 year old).  But it's another think to watch your kids slowly adopt an education outlook to which you're strongly opposed.  It's at this point that you really have to ask yourself whether you're really going to go the whole nine yards and do things just like very other parent in the local culture.  Are you, for example, going to send your kids to the Juku cram schools which means they'll be gone from about 7:30am to 11:30pm.  Are you going to shell out the $300 or more a month for those schools.  Because unless you are willing to do this, your children will have no hope whatsoever of competing in Japanese society.  It's one thing to play along as an expat, but a whole different thing to really accept the reality of immigration.

I never hide that I am an American, but I don't lead with it either.

I have to laugh now that to avoid potential unpleasantness when traveling in Yemen during the first Gulf War, I used to tell Yemenis who asked that I was from Denmark.  I mean, who could possibly have anything against the Danes?

think expats that come to a new country and expect it to be more-or-less the same as "back home" set themselves up for huge disappointment.

I miss some things -- certain television shows, good peanut butter, snow, BASEBALL! -- but generally I've no urge to go back.

So you say now.  One of my friends spent nearly 20 years in Finland and thought he'd never leave (married to a Finn). But when his girls hit high school age, off they went.

Snow?  What kind of America are YOU from, Boy!

[science_expat]

I came to the UK for a two year post-doc and stayed. I'm very happy and have no plans to go back. But I'll never say never, if I were offered a fantastic endowed chair then I'd have to think things through very seriously. Of course, I'd do the same if that chair were in Canada, or New Zealand, or...

I certainly have grown a lot as a result of living in Europe. I have friends and colleagues across the continent and my view of the world (and of the US!) has broadened substantially. I've also been very fortunate not to have been in the States for the madness that descended on it with W and the response to the 9/11 attacks.

I will always be an American, however. I don't mean this in a flag waving intend to return "home" way - home to me is the house I'm sitting in at the moment. But culturally I AM American, my first 30 years were lived in the States and hence my experiences and perceptions differ from those of my friends and colleagues here.

[expatinuk]

I also came to the UK for a two year gig and ended up staying. It's been really good for me both professionally as well as personally. I enjoy working with the students, and because I'm in Europe my research opportunities seem to be much greater than when I was in the States.

Yes, I do miss things from the States (usually junk food) but I've learned that Grits can be found in Romania, only they are called Mamaliga, and Chips Ahoy cookies can be found in Spain!

I AM an American... I'll still be an American even when I pay the £655 to get dual citizenship... just like I'll always be a Southerner no matter where I live.

[spork]

Thailand.

[dolljepopp]

You say you'll always BE an American.  In what sense?  I wasn't talking about those American expats who just have to have their Doritos and Ding Dongs or they can't be happy.  I'm also including people who make an effort to blend in, learn the language, and all of the bonding with the culture stuff.  But it's a kind of game.  They know deep down that they won't really stay forever. 

I mean that I'll always be an American in the since that science_expat and expatinuk mean (apologies to them if I misrepresent their comments). I spent the first xx years of my life growing up in the US, getting college degrees, etc. Those cultural underpinnings will always be a part of me.

In my 25 years of life in other countries, it's been my experience that the crucial factor is children when they get to be of high school age.  Sure it's "fun" to put your kids in a foreign elementary school and brag about how they are totally bilingual (for a 10 year old).  But it's another think to watch your kids slowly adopt an education outlook to which you're strongly opposed.  It's at this point that you really have to ask yourself whether you're really going to go the whole nine yards and do things just like very other parent in the local culture.  Are you, for example, going to send your kids to the Juku cram schools which means they'll be gone from about 7:30am to 11:30pm.  Are you going to shell out the $300 or more a month for those schools.  Because unless you are willing to do this, your children will have no hope whatsoever of competing in Japanese society.  It's one thing to play along as an expat, but a whole different thing to really accept the reality of immigration.

Kids aren't in the picture for us. We don't want any and probably couldn't have them if we did. How I'd feel about the local educational system vs. the US or UK systems, I don't know. (My SO is British.) I suspect we'd send them to the "English" school in SO's city because it is a better school than the "American" one, but I don't know. Said hypothetical kids would, I imagine, be Brit-leaning mutts, as SO has lived out of the UK for most of the last twenty years, but is definitely still "English".


Our cats will be equally aloof towards all cultures...

I have to laugh now that to avoid potential unpleasantness when traveling in Yemen during the first Gulf War, I used to tell Yemenis who asked that I was from Denmark.  I mean, who could possibly have anything against the Danes?

When I say I don't lead with telling people I'm an American, it is not out of any sense of embarrassment or shame or fear, however I may feel about past, current, or future Presidents. (Neither SO nor I live in areas where anti-Americanism is very prevalent.) I just think bursting out immediately with "Hi, I'm dolljepopp and I'm AMERICAN!" (or for that matter, "ENGLISH/SPANISH/KENYAN/SURINAMIAN!" [Is that right?]) is obnoxious and unnecessary.

So you say now.  One of my friends spent nearly 20 years in Finland and thought he'd never leave (married to a Finn). But when his girls hit high school age, off they went.

Well of course one tries not to say "never", and, yes, my attitudes could change. But on a day-to-day basis, I like it here better. And I hope to spend the rest of my life with someone who is not an American. Yes, she might be willing to follow me "back", but it would be career suicide for her and she has no desire to live in the States. With no kids in the mix, staying seems likely. (We have discussed retiring in the UK.)

Snow?  What kind of America are YOU from, Boy!

Winter -- real winter -- is a beautiful thing. Hot weather, insect bites, and sunburn are way overrated...

[donstefano]

-commercial- Yes, Belgium is a good idea... One of the best education systems in the world (if you have children), not terribly expensive real estate (but changing rapidly), great food, and good public transport. But there aren't that many universities, and not many vacancies.
If you have been in academia for a while (at least 5 years after the phd), have a look at the BOF Research professorships - this is something relatively new and an alternative way of getting a job.

[prytania3]

Panama

[danny_boy]

DP, I basically know what you mean.  But I've had half a lifetime thinking about these things so do mind me if things just sort of roll off my fingertips.

I mean that I'll always be an American in the since that science_expat and expatinuk mean (apologies to them if I misrepresent their comments). I spent the first xx years of my life growing up in the US, getting college degrees, etc. Those cultural underpinnings will always be a part of me.

This brings up for me the question of whether identity is immutable.  While in Germany I wrote a short story (in German) about a hippopotamus one day rising up out of the Nile (after all, they are "Nilpherde") and starting to wattle across the savana.  A curious leopard runs up beside the hippo and asks him what he's doing.  The "hippo" declares that it is from now on a leopard.  The rest of the story is a philosophical (and probably sophomoric) discussion between the two on identity.

I'm less convinced now that one can throw off one's past (too many karmic sorts of events) but I also know that I'm no longer a plain vanilla American having been outside of my "river" for more than half of my life so far.

Kids aren't in the picture for us.

And of course this alters the picture dramatically.  Still, and I know this is horribly "breeder-centric," I can't help feeling that it's not exactly the same sort of emigration as when one knows that the choices made will also affect generations to come.  The emigrant is not just moving him or herself, s/he is moving all the yet unborn descendants. 

I suspect we'd send them to the "English" school in SO's city because it is a better school than the "American" one, but I don't know.

But either way that would be "opting out" which is not a path other to the true emigrant.  My kids have attended expat British schools (in Oman), private Spanish-speaking catholic schools (in Mexico) and Japanese public schools -- all prior to moving to the US to attend American public schools.  In Mexico and Japan they were doing "the local thing" but as they moved higher and higher up in the system the less happy we were with the realities of the situation.  Realities that the Japanese parents of Japanese children accept.  We knew we didn't have to.

[/quote]
When I say I don't lead with telling people I'm an American, it is not out of any sense of embarrassment or shame or fear, however I may feel about past, current, or future Presidents. (Neither SO nor I live in areas where anti-Americanism is very prevalent.) I just think bursting out immediately with "Hi, I'm dolljepopp and I'm AMERICAN!" (or for that matter, "ENGLISH/SPANISH/KENYAN/SURINAMIAN!" [Is that right?]) is obnoxious and unnecessary.
[/quote]

There's anti-Americanism and then there's anti-Americanism.  In Yemen, even small children in small villages had been trained to throw rocks at strangers.  All adult men carried AK-47's.  The oldest among them still recalled times where any white person (which was the same as being a Christian) would have been shot on sight, no questions asked.  People were protesting in the streets of Sana'a screaming "Saddam we give our blood for you."  In situations like that you don't tell people you're an American unless you are very very sure of the effect. 

I suppose I'm an obvious American here in Japan.  I mean with my red hair and read face it's not like I could blend in, if I only spoke Japanese.  Today I actually wore a (Mexican) cowboy hat as I went about my day. 

And I hope to spend the rest of my life with someone who is not an American.

That, of course, makes things easier.  I often feel like everyone is born with this big rubber band attached to their back and anchored in the place they grew up.  You're always somehow fighting against this.  And with a couple both from the "same place" that's two rubber bands pulling your back.  I used to feel that since my wife wasn't American there wouldn't be the pull.  Then everyone in her village moved to Southern Cal.