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[theotherspouse]

I'm the non-academic half of my marriage, and we're now running into the two body problem.

Me:  Corporate Manager, very happy with my job.  I make $145,000 with bonuses.  My company seems stable, with lots of growth potential for my career.  It would be difficult to find a similar job in most other cities.

Hubby:  Science Ph.D. candidate, will graduate soon, beginning to look for post-docs.  Has one offer near my job, but the lab is not great and it would probably not help him land a tt job.   He has two other offers at better universities, one that is a four hour drive, one that is a four hour flight.  With his ambition and success so far, I think he has a good chance at finding a tt job eventually, but it would probably take 2-5 years (and is not a sure thing).  Hubby is ambivalent about life in academia--some days he absolutely loves it, other days he is ready for a job in the private sector (there are plenty near our home). 

I'm willing to move for tenure track, but not a post-doc.  Hubby used to believe that this was unreasonable, but is now coming around to my view (my paycheck helps).  He is not keen on living separately, but I am not willing to move unless I can find a similar, challenging job that will support a comfortable lifestyle.  In many cities that would not be easy--my salary could take as much as a 100K hit if I had to find a job in another city. 

Here's my question:  Do I encourage Hubby to follow dreams, and possibly lose our marriage if we have to live apart for  5 years (gulp)?   Or do I encourage him to consider the private sector so that we can stay where we are now?   He's very unsure, and I think I could convince him either way. 

If he follows his dreams, he may find a fabulous tt position and become a huge star.  BUT, he could spend 5 years away from me and never find a tt position.  I don't know how our marriage could survive this, though I hear it is possible.  If he goes into private industry, his credentials and my corporate contacts could help him find a great biotech job (most likely in management), but he would never again be able to pursue all of his creative ideas and research interests. 

Part of me wants to encourage him to follow his dreams, but the other part of me knows how hard it is to get tt positions.  It doesn't help that science is kind of like playing the lottery--sometimes the brilliant ideas and experiments work out, but often they do not.  I am afraid that he could spend 5 years on a futile search for results (both in the lab and in his job search).  But I also don't want him resenting me for forcing him to give up his dream. 

So . . . thoughts?

[scheherazade]

So, let me get this straight.  You're not sure if you should support your husband in his career?  The one in which he's spend years of his life already?  Isn't this, maybe, a concern that you could have brought up before with him?  What precisely did you think he was going to do with that degree?

So you think you should stay with your job.  Because, after all, you're happy there and you make a lot of money.  Does your husband not deserve to find a job that makes him happy?

In the sciences, it is my understanding (and a science person can chime in on this one) that post-docs are part and parcel of the deal.  It is typical to do at least one before finding a TT job.  So, yes, you're being unreasonable.  And selfish, might I add.  You knew damn well that he was going to be looking for a TT job when he graduated, but you decide to pop this on him and pressure him now.

I advise you to be a little less selfish.  I also advise him to grow a pair.

[latis]

It doesn't help that science is kind of like playing the lottery--sometimes the brilliant ideas and experiments work out, but often they do not.  I am afraid that he could spend 5 years on a futile search for results (both in the lab and in his job search).  But I also don't want him resenting me for forcing him to give up his dream. 

So . . . thoughts?

Is this how he talks about his work?  Like a lottery?

[expatinuk]

I'll probably be the only one to say that an academic career isn't the only result of a Ph.D., especially in the sciences.

No, I don't think that you're selfish for wanting YOUR career as well as wishing one for your spouse. Marriage is about compromise and your career is just as important as his.

If your spouse is ambivalent about academe perhaps he should do a corporate gig to see how he likes that. He knows what academe is like, but he doesn't know if he'll like corporate.

[theotherspouse]

So, let me get this straight.  You're not sure if you should support your husband in his career?  The one in which he's spend years of his life already?  Isn't this, maybe, a concern that you could have brought up before with him?  What precisely did you think he was going to do with that degree?

So you think you should stay with your job.  Because, after all, you're happy there and you make a lot of money.  Does your husband not deserve to find a job that makes him happy?

In the sciences, it is my understanding (and a science person can chime in on this one) that post-docs are part and parcel of the deal.  It is typical to do at least one before finding a TT job.  So, yes, you're being unreasonable.  And selfish, might I add.  You knew damn well that he was going to be looking for a TT job when he graduated, but you decide to pop this on him and pressure him now.

I advise you to be a little less selfish.  I also advise him to grow a pair.

It is impossible to provide the full picture in a brief post.   We were both in school when we got married.  I graduated a year and a half ago, and got enormously lucky in my job search.   We've always known that this was coming--so I didn't just "pop" this on him.  We discuss it all the time.  His recurring ambivalence about academia is what makes me consider pushing harder for a private position. 

Your reaction also seems a bit harsh--I also have to wonder if your post would have been the same if my Hubby were the one pulling down 145K and I was the one looking at 30K postdocs in cities that were hours from our home.  Or, perhaps you believe that academia is the only place Ph.D.s can pursue "real" careers (I'm not so sure that is true).

[scheherazade]

Of course my answer would be the same.  I don't care about the gender of the person - it's irrelevant.

Have you ever considered that he might be ambivalent because of the pressure he's receiving from you?  And while you may have been at school the whole time, when did you inform him that you weren't going to move for a post-doc and don't want to handle the long-distance relationship?

And, no, academia certainly isn't the only place to get a job with a PhD.  But if he's ambivalent, it means by definition that part of him wants to pursue the academic job.  It may very well be that he wants academia more than you think, but he's afraid to tell you because of the conditions and pressure you have been laying down.

I'm not there.  I don't know either of you.  But, quite frankly, your post is all about you and what you want.  The only consideration of him is in how you can fit him to your plans and desires.  Marriage is a give and take.  I don't expect you to give up your career for him.  But then why should he give up his career for you?

Yes, my reaction is harsh.  It's also honest.  Sometimes that's the way things work.

[sciencephd]

Doing a postdoc is common for people who go into industry as well, so I don't think this is a strictly either/or situation.

If there is a wide variety of industry, then doing an industrial postdoc is an option, which if done correctly can leave the door open to publications and therefore future TT postions.

How ambivalent is he actually about an academic career in science ?  Most of those who are truly ambivalent about academic science end up in industry...there is simply no other motivation to remaining in academia except the joy of teaching/research itself.

Are you in a metropolitan area ?  If so, I'm surprised that there would not be good postdocs available, unless he is determined to remain in a very narrow subspecialty.

[theotherspouse]

Marriage is about compromise and your career is just as important as his.

I totally agree.  What drives me crazy about the academic job market is how imbalanced the give and take can be.   It seems that huge sacrifices must be made, no matter what.  Either you are both committed to your careers (and living apart); or one of you is completely sacrificing your career for the other one.   

At what point do you decide to just be happy with what you have?   Right now, we live in an area we love, we are near friends and family, and we enjoy a high income.   Hubby and I are both happy with life as is.  (Maybe I can convince Hubby to stay in grad school forever?!)  To me, that is why a private, corporate job in this area makes sense.  He would still be involved in the science industry, he would just have to work on profitable projects rather than interesting ones. 

I'm wondering about the academic's perspective.  How many of you could find happiness in this situation?  Would you come to resent the lost opportunity to pursue an academic job?   How many failures would it take on the job market for you to feel that you had your chance at the dream academic job?   

(Most scientists do 1-2 postdocs before being able to find a tt position, so it is a minimum 2 years of separation for us.  Like I said, if a tt position materializes, I'll move in a heartbeat, so it is just the postdocs that are the problem.)   

[theotherspouse]

Doing a postdoc is common for people who go into industry as well, so I don't think this is a strictly either/or situation.

If there is a wide variety of industry, then doing an industrial postdoc is an option, which if done correctly can leave the door open to publications and therefore future TT postions.

How ambivalent is he actually about an academic career in science ?  Most of those who are truly ambivalent about academic science end up in industry...there is simply no other motivation to remaining in academia except the joy of teaching/research itself.

Are you in a metropolitan area ?  If so, I'm surprised that there would not be good postdocs available, unless he is determined to remain in a very narrow subspecialty.

Completely agreed with this post.   There are just a couple of caveats, however, that make this situation a bit more complex.   

First, and perhaps this is important.  He worked in private industry before grad school.  He had the same experience as in grad school--some days he liked it and other days he didn't.  (So he sees the pros/cons on both sides of the fence--academia and industry.  He knows that neither is a bed of roses.  But they are very different, so he struggles with choosing the best option.)   

Second, his credentials and our industry contacts are good enough so that he could skip the post-doc for an industry job, so we don't have to worry about that. 

Third, his field is somewhat specialized and he is committed only to the "dream job" in academia.  That means that he will take the best post-doc he can get and won't compromise with a position closer to home.  (I agree with this, by the way.  I want his career to be successful, and we both realize that a mediocre post-doc would not put him in a very good position for industry or academia.) 

Also, to return to the lottery analogy. I'm sure that the science grads in this forum can appreciate how capricous your research can be.  The most well-designed and creative experiment can yield zilch results, so pursuing a scientific tt position is a very risky career path.   Many intelligent and driven scientists spend years on experiments and projects that end up going nowhere.  If you're already tenured, that is fine, but for graduate students, post-docs and untenured faculty, it can be horrible.

[scheherazade]

In my situation, I followed my SO through med school and now residency.  However, he helps support me during my MA, and when he is done with his residency he knows that I choose the place for my PhD, and he follows.  I have made it perfectly clear that if he chooses at some point to not follow me, I will leave him behind.  He will always make more money than me, and I would certainly be upset and sad if I had to leave him behind.  However, I would resent the hell out of him if I sacrificed my career choices for him.  He knows this very well.  However, at one point, he (somehow, I don't even know how) interpreted my career choices as "flexible".  Uh-uh.  This led to a lot of tension, but once he realized how unhappy I would be, he understood a bit more.  It never really occurred to him that I would be unhappy, as long as I was taken care of financially and had a social life and "some sort of career" (his words).  It took several months of really hard work on my part and several arguments to get him to understand.

Now, again, we're not you.  Your husband may very well end up preferring an industry job, and that's fine.  But, as sciencephd said, that still will likely require a post-doc.  And just because you are both happy with life as it is right now doesn't mean that your husband doesn't ever want more.You ask, "At what point do you decide to just be happy with what you have?"  Well, that's easy for you to say.  You have what you want.  You have a career with which you're exceptionally happy.  He does not.  One particular quote of yours stands out to me:

To me, that is why a private, corporate job in this area makes sense.  He would still be involved in the science industry, he would just have to work on profitable projects rather than interesting ones.

This is a lack of perspective on your part.  For you, profit over intellectual fulfillment may be fine.  Many would agree.  But academics are in it for the intellectual fulfillment.  This is and unacceptable trade off for us.  Many of us would be miserable working on projects for profit only.  In fact, that is why some people leave industry for academia - they simply can't stand it any more.  If this is how your husband feels, he will be miserable in industry.

You need to stop pressuring him to accept a situation because it makes you comfortable and makes sense to you.  You need to support him in finding what will fulfill him as a scientist and a person.  You continue to see this as a question of what will make you happy, and you're ignoring or rationalizing away his needs.  It may end up that he chooses what you want all on his own.  But you have to let him do the choosing.

[theotherspouse]

However, I would resent the hell out of him if I sacrificed my career choices for him. 

Agreed!  If your SO has come around to making the sacrifice for your career, I think that is great.  (Keep in mind that he is a doctor, and they are usually in demand and well paid no matter where you go.   So every two body problem is a little different.) 


So, when faced with the situation:
1.  If I sacrifice my career, I'll be resentful.
2.  If he sacrifices his career, he'll be resentful

This problem can't be reduced to "She's selfish if she won't let him pursue his career;" because the converse is "He's selfish if he makes her give up her career."   Both are right, which is why some sort of compromise is necessary. 

As far as resentment goes, the two body problem potentially creates two horrible "what-if" scenarios.   If Hubby doesn't pursue an academic job, he might always wonder "what if I had tried to make it in academia?"  But, if our marriage fails due to the hardship of the academic job search, then we might always wonder "what if we had stayed together in [our town] instead?"   To me, the second "what if" would be just as intolerable as the first.   So choosing which "what if" to risk is extremely, extremely difficult.  Unless you can assume that one's career would make one happier than one's marriage/relationship (or vice versa), there are no easy answers. 

This is a lack of perspective on your part.  For you, profit over intellectual fulfillment may be fine.  Many would agree.  But academics are in it for the intellectual fulfillment.  This is and unacceptable trade off for us.

This quote makes me think of two things.   

First, I understand the need for intellectual fulfillment.  However, profit and intellectual fulfillment are not mutually exclusive.  My job is heavily intellectual, and that is one reason I love it. What separates me from academics is that I like the money too.  I could never have one and not the other.  The issue here is--can Hubby be satisfied without pursuing the academic job?   Can Hubby be satisfied living hours away from me to do a post-doc?  (He understands why I won't give up a great permanent position for him to have a temporary one.)   That is the difficulty. 

Second, this quote makes me think that the unacceptable trade-off is the big unknown variable.   Really, when you get down to it, the trade-off is:
1.  Our Relationship
2.  Our Careers

The catch is, these two variables are not independant.  Career happiness affects relationship happiness.   It gets even harder when, like us, you are both equally committed to your careers and your relationship.  Take out the academic job search, and the career trade-off becomes much easier to deal with. 

[theotherspouse]

You ask, "At what point do you decide to just be happy with what you have?"  Well, that's easy for you to say.  You have what you want.  You have a career with which you're exceptionally happy.  He does not. 

By framing this part of your post this way, you make it seem as if my career and happiness are disposable in favor of Hubby's career and happiness.  It is not that simple.   

Would the tone of your post have changed if I were tenured faculty at a tier 1 University doing my dream research?  Given my field, that is pretty much what I have now.   Jobs outside the Ivory Tower can be extremely hard to get and extremely rewarding once you have them, just as tenured academic positions can be.

Any relationship or career compromise can't always favor the academic spouse.   I'm trying to get academics' opinion on when it should.

[expatinuk]

Hey... theotherspouse.... you're speaking as if you don't want to hear any other opions than the ones you've already got. Slow down and let the thread develop.

I don't think that you're going to change your mind no matter what is posted. You just want people to support your way of thinking.

I'm NOT saying that your way of thinking is wrong. I think that you do indeed have valid reasons for thinking the way you do. But you're NOT going to hear anything if you keep fighting with folks who disagree with what you say.

Sit back and chill...

[snowbound]

I think you're asking us the wrong question.  You want to know which option you should persuade your husband to take.  Wrong!  Back off.  The decision HAS to be his.  You clearly would v much prefer that he not pursue an academic career, since that means separate living, but I think it is a big mistake for you to work on persuading hubby to your way of thinking.  The problem is that he would experience the decision--now and for the rest of your marriage--as YOUR way of thinking.  And every time things weren't going perfectly at work, he would resent you accordingly.  You would be the one who deprived him of the life he could have had.

It is HIS decision.  It has to be.  A commuting marriage, with travel home every weekend and every academic break, can work.  Many do, though it's not ideal.  A marriage with a resentful spouse, who feels like he was coerced into giving up his life dream when it was almost within his grasp, is a fast ticket to the divorce court. 

If hubby could indeed be happy in an industry job, he will be far more able to figure this out for himself if you back off. Completely.  Then no matter how it works out, he'll always know that it was his own decision.

[voxprincipalis]

Hey... theotherspouse.... you're speaking as if you don't want to hear any other opions than the ones you've already got. Slow down and let the thread develop.

I don't think that you're going to change your mind no matter what is posted. You just want people to support your way of thinking.

Yep.

And, what are you going to do with the information? Go back to your husband and wave it in his face? "See, the people on the CHE think you won't get a job either! So you should do what I want."

I think this is HIS business, and HE should be the one posting here, not you.

VP