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[navelgazer]

I decided to make a new thread, because I'm interested in what decisions people made while negotiating their way in the two-body world.

So, how did you create your current workaround? How did you decide? What regrets do you have? How naive am I to think "it will work out" (which, incidentally is SO's adviser's position)?


Right now I'm deciding between an R1 TT job and a teaching post-doc in my tiny humanities field. I would take R1TT in a heartbeat if not for uncertainty with SO. The teaching post-doc is near SO's current Science post-doc (I trailed him here, but I was also unemployed). I cannot understate how supportive and amazing SO has been / is being. It is much harder for someone in my field to find this kind of position than it will be for SO. My tiny humanities department has a very limited amount of power, if any, in the spousal hiring of giant science field at R1. At least for junior me.

[milou]

I think you have to make sacrifices to make things work. The question is, what sacrifices. In my case I work 2 hours from my SO. I commute. Not fun. It means I work home some days, other days I travel 4 hours for a 1 hour meeting. I miss interesting lectures on campus, because I am writing elsewhere, or because during my time on campus I need to meet with students or do other things. Other people take jobs many hours apart. they see each other a few times a month and that is ok for them. For me seeing the SO often is important even if my nights are sometimes short. We assume the SO will eventually get a job closer.



                                  Milou

[heronhouse]

Right now I'm deciding between an R1 TT job and a teaching post-doc in my tiny humanities field. I would take R1TT in a heartbeat if not for uncertainty with SO. The teaching post-doc is near SO's current Science post-doc (I trailed him here, but I was also unemployed)....It is much harder for someone in my field to find this kind of position than it will be for SO.

This last sentence holds a lot of weight, in my opinion.  If this is a rare opportunity, you should think long and hard about why you would turn it down.  What do you both want long term?  Short term?

My SO and I have been dealing with somewhat similar questions, though we are both in the same field (humanities).  I am on my second year on the t-t; he is adjuncting near where I work, since he just finished his PhD.  What we have come to realize is that we are willing to live apart for one to two years if that means he can get t-t experience.  So far in our limited experience trying to negotiate something spousal-oriented, two things have really mattered: (1) t-t experience and (2) publications.  We had been insistent on staying together no matter what, but we are coming around to the idea that it's worth the short-term sacrifice for the hopes of our long-term goal of being on the t-t in the same city/small region.  To do that, we need to be as marketable as possible.  We've decided that if we don't end up reaching that goal within 2-3 years, then one of us can transition from the t-t to adjuncting, which is easier than trying to transition from adjuncting to the t-t.  A postdoc is a slightly easier transition to a t-t job, but I really don't think there's any substitute for t-t experience.

Since you are in a humanities field and t-t jobs are hard to come by, you may want to take the t-t job now.  When your SO finishes his postdoc and goes out on the market, he might be able to get his hiring department to get the appropriate humanities department to hire you in some fashion.  If your partner is likely to end up at an R1, it will look good if already have that kind of experience on your CV.  Of course, it's no guarantee, but it's important to think about likelihoods.

You didn't mention how far away the t-t job is, and obviously, that's a big factor.  I'm just putting the perspective out there from a couple who had thought that we would live together under any circumstances, and is now rethinking it.

[bigsky]

From the outside I see 2 job scenarios: 2 temporary jobs vs. 1 TT and 1 temporary. By turning down the TT you have no future guarantees of permanent jobs.

[navelgazer]

Right now I'm deciding between an R1 TT job and a teaching post-doc in my tiny humanities field. I would take R1TT in a heartbeat if not for uncertainty with SO. The teaching post-doc is near SO's current Science post-doc (I trailed him here, but I was also unemployed)....It is much harder for someone in my field to find this kind of position than it will be for SO.

My SO and I have been dealing with somewhat similar questions, though we are both in the same field (humanities).  I am on my second year on the t-t; he is adjuncting near where I work, since he just finished his PhD.  What we have come to realize is that we are willing to live apart for one to two years if that means he can get t-t experience. 

Thanks Heronhouse, you said a lot of things that have been going through my mind. (FYI the job is a 3 hour flight away, and in one of those largish American cities that SHOULD have direct flights but really doesn't.)

I agree strongly with your last paragraph. This has been our approach to jobs from the beginning. (He's never been on the market yet, and this was my third year.) But now that it's actually happened: I have a post-doc offer that would be so much easier! It's strange how much that is influencing our thinking. We've also both meant it in the past when we've said "we'll be flexible to make this work," but now that it's actually happening, well fear of the unknown impacts flexibility. At the very, very beginning of our relationship, I began Grad School on the opposite coast from him, and that all worked out really well (he got into the #1 school in his field, which just happened to be 30 miles from my school).

Thanks again.

FWIW, I'm still interested in how people make these decisions.

[elemental]

We've done this several times, and tried everything out- one followed the other, vice versa, lived apart, etc. Throughout, we kept our eyes on two goals: Maintaining our relationship and what we want for our careers. Both of these keep us looking forward. For both the careers and the relationship's sake, we haven't taken a 'one primary career' stance. We see our careers as linked- if something is truly bad for one person, then it's not really good for the other one, either. So, we've each made considerable career compromises, but we've also been able to take advantage of great opportunities which we might not have been looking for otherwise. Our relationship is long-standing and solid, and spending time together and talking things over is a real priority. There are ups and downs, triumphs and disappointments, but overall it's a great life!

[heronhouse]

Also, have you talked to your RI hiring department to see about whether the school might be able to swing a t-t gig for your spouse once he is finished his postdoc?  If you haven't already mentioned him to the SC, I think you should at this point.  It will be good to get a sense from them of the university's perspective on spousal hires.  And if nothing else, you should try to work toward securing a Tuesday-Thursday teaching schedule to make commuting easier, should that be the route you choose.

[navelgazer]

An update.

We decided on Saturday (although I think spouse thinks we decided earlier) for me to take the TT job. To be clear about this job, it is among the top jobs in my field this year, and really the top 2 or 3 for my subfield, period. To say that I was surprised by the offer would be an understatement. The pay and teaching load are better than any of my peers from grad school, and there is no reason to think that after a teaching-heavy post-doc something like this would ever turn up again.

We assume that 2 years on this job will make me a desirable candidate for similar positions, however. Our back-up plan is for spouse to stay in current post-doc one more year (1200 miles away), go on the market next year, and if necessary transition to post-doc at my new school. I would hire a nanny.

One reason we've been hopeful is that several people from spouse's grad lab have gotten jobs at similar schools this year. (All large, top-tier, public R1s with big Science departments for him.) This morning we found out that it is likely that one of his grad school cohort is going to take a job at my school.

We're working on confirming, but our source is very good. This would almost eliminate the possibility that my school would be interested in him in a year or two. Spouse is devastated, and we need to decide on this offer earlier than any couples counselor would be able to fit us in.

Other points:
1. Until the post-doc spouse was always very interested in industry, he always framed it in terms of wanting to do research and mentoring within a community of scientists: there ARE industry positions like this.
2. We don't think there are industry positions like this in Awesome City.
3. His post-doc has changed his mind (long story), and he's more attached to academia. Also, seeing me getting this job is affecting him in ways neither of us anticipated.
4. Baby! Due late April!

Conclusion: I don't know what I want. There is a "gender" element here: I know I am more flexible, mentally, and in the end would probably resent changing careers or career goals less than him. I also know that this fact will make me resent him.

Can I go to R1 in Awesome City knowing that he can't follow me in a way that he thinks will make him happy? Should I put it off and stay here in Decent Suburb and get on with this teaching-heavy post-doc, knowing that this opportunity will probably never happen again? Will I even be happy at R1 in Awesome City?

I don't know what I want! I needed to write this out.

[navelgazer]

I'm not sure why I put gender in scare quotes.

And, I actually tried to accept this job yesterday afternoon but it's Spring Break everywhere and people weren't around.

[heronhouse]

Oh, navelgazer, I can feel from your post how difficult this must be.  My partner and I are in the same subfield, so we are virtually guaranteed never to have a job in the same institution.  It is rough.

For what it's worth--from a stranger who doesn't know you, your spouse, your field, or the institution you're thinking of joining--this really sounds like too good of an opportunity to pass up.  You sound proud of yourself--as you should be--and from this post, you seem to really want this t-t job.  If that is the case, I hope you don't feel guilty about that. 

I wonder if it would help to think about what is the worst case scenario of taking this job and seeing how it goes for you and spouse.  It seems like that this potential job is an excellent one, which you might enjoy and want to stay at for a long time.  If so, maybe spouse can find a job within regional commuting distance.  If, on the other hand, you decide ultimately that you don't like the job or that spouse can't find work nearby, are you really in any worse of a situation than you are in right now?  And aren't you arguably in a better position than you're in now if this new job will make you more marketable in the future?  So, I guess what I'm saying is that I see a lot of upside in the t-t job and not a tremendous amount of downside.

Plus, remember, that spouse's grad school colleague could leave, and then--ta da!--your spouse could fit right in.  (OK, I know it's not that simple, but at the very least it's worth keeping in mind that you have no idea how long that grad school colleague will stay, regardless of what s/he thinks now.)

No matter what, I hope that you are congratulating yourself frequently for your success this year.  Best of luck to you and your partner as you make this decision.  And be kind to yourself when you think about what *you* want.

[englitprof]

I'm with heronhouse here.  Take the TT job and see how it goes.  You can always leave, and it would be a shame to pass this opportunity up without giving it a try.

[dundee]

Another vote for taking the t-t job - you may never, ever get such a good opportunity again. You don't want to spend your whole life thinking about the one that got away.

My SO and I just solved out two-body problem within the past few weeks. She already had a t-t job and I'm ABD. I did a national search and did surprisingly well - lots of interviews with better schools that I expected. However, she did a very limited search, only applying for jobs that were a step-up. Lo and behold, she got an amazingly good and amazingly early offer with a deadline before many of my campus interviews. We talked about all the options, including her turning down the offer and staying put in the hope that I'd get a job with a place I had a campus interview with that was nearby. However, after playing out all the possible scenarios in our heads, we decided that her offer was simply too good to turn down, so she accepted it and I withdrew from a bunch of searches, planning to go on the market again next year.

Just a few days after I accepted my fate and resigned myself to going on the market again, I unexpectedly received an offer from an institution in the same area as my SO's new institution! Now we are both starting new t-t positons in the Fall with a reasonable commute and a pretty high combined income. We feel like we've won the lottery.

So, I understand how difficult the decisions you face are, but encourage you to take the great offer and work from there. My SO's offer was simply so good that I couldn't ask her to turn it down; we don't see our careers as separate, but interdependent. As a couple, we were aiming for a pair of jobs that worked well together, rather than for each person to have their dream job. The fact that she got her dream job and I got a very good one makes both of us happy. Hopefully, you and your SO will end up with a similar outcome.

[niceday]

From your description, taking the T-T job for you is clearly the better option. Think of it this way: it is not irreversible. If you both are miserable, and if nothing works out for your spouse, and if he finds something better somewhere else ... you can always resign. However, it is really unlikely that you will land a R1 top T-T job in a competitive humanities field twice, the second time with an older Ph.D.

The opportunity you have is irreplaceable, but not irreversible. Congratulations.

[navelgazer]

Since I posted two things have happened:

1. We confirmed that friend is taking the job. (I, for one, and happy that I'll know someone in Awesome City.)
2. We confirmed that I will be taking the job.

Now, we have to deal with our emotions. I think we're both afraid that we're lumbering towards a dead end for him, and I feel like a bad person.

It's funny that people mentioned being proud of this job. I guess a little, I'm mainly in shock that I got the offer, still.

[hamed]

Stop for a second, don't worry too much, and appreciate this moment. We don't do that enough. You should be proud of yourself. And as you were willing to take some risks and be flexible ... let's only focus on the bright side for now and hope that your spouse will too.

Good job! Congratulations.

You will have plenty of time to worry, now celebrate and try to cheer up your spouse.