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[ktmallon82]

Hi All,

It's been a pleasure reading everyone's trials and tribulations, as I definitely have some of own concerns. I am currently a master's student in a Medieval Studies program at a highly ranked university and will most likely graduate with a 3.9 GPA. I also graduated from an Ivy League school as an undergraduate with a 3.6 GPA with a degree in History (Ancient). My GRE scores are as follows: 730 Verbal, 600 Quant., and a 5.0 on the analytical writing section. I also have your basic extra-curriculars: graduate assitantship for M.A program, scholarship as an undergrad, on the history council, etc.

Next fall, I will begin the application process for Ph.D programs. Ideally I would want to go to a top 10 Ivy league Ph.D program studying History. I am concerned in that my language preparation will not stand out for the programs, and that this will deny me admittance. I've studied Spanish for about 8 years, but it isn't a relevant research language, so I can X that out. Additionally, by the time I apply, I will only have taken 2 Latin courses and a German for reading course. I am competent in French, however, and have also studied Latin in reading groups and independently for the past year. What are your thoughts and opinions on how this might affect my consideration for admission? I am specifically applying for Ancient History, where basically at the end of the Ph.D you are to be literate in French, German, Latin, and Greek. And what else should I be doing?

Any other admonitions for applying to Ph.D programs in Ancient History?

Thanks!

KTM

[scheherazade]

From checking around, it seems you need French, German, Latin, and Greek.  Some of the departments specify certain languages that they want you to have prior to beginning the program - for example, UChicago wants Latin and Greek before, and French and German by the end of the first year.  Others are more vague, asking for the four languages.

Your French is fine - you already know that.  Your Latin is OK - a year of Latin is pretty good.  Two years would be better, but I doubt it will be a dealbreaker for all or most programs.  Taking German for reading knowledge is probably all you need, with maybe a later refresher (you could do that independently).  The lack of Greek will bother some programs, but I can't be certain of all.

Your best bet is to contact the programs directly and ask them precisely what they expect.  Ancient and medieval are, by far, the most language-intensive subfields.  Good luck - you'll do fine!

[merce]

Can you take a Latin test somewhere to get a score you could offer prospective PhD programs?
You would probably not ace the Toronto test but perhaps it doesn't matter.  The point would be to say you can do Latin to X extent.

Otherwise just list your abilities on your CV:

French- Fluent reading/writing/speaking
Latin- Reading ability (or intermediate reading ability)
German- basic reading ability

Don't highlight your (or what you perceive to be) deficiencies.
They don't know what your abilities are if you don't provide proof (i.e., a test score of some sort)

[magistra]

Um.  You're fine in French; you'll likely need Italian too, but the French, Spanish, and Latin will mean you can pick through Italian with a dictionary fairly readily, so don't worry about that.

I'd suggest more German for your own sake, but on paper you're find there.  You'll likely be able to take Reading Knowledge again in grad school anyway.

The problem is your ancient languages, which are key, and which are the hardest to pick up.  Grad school is hard enough; struggling with the languages is going to be a challenge.  It's not just about getting in, it's about succeeding once you're there.  Do ask the schools about this, as it will vary.  Do you have an idea of what your research focus will be?  If you're planning on Augustan Rome, you don't need to worry much about Greek; if you're doing late Antique/Byzantine, you will.  You also need to think about how quickly you can pick up a working knowledge of the languages.  Do you have a strong natural affinity, or is it a struggle? 

I definitely recommend that you take as much Latin and Greek before you enter as you can, and put it on your CV.  Merce's list is excellent, and don't forget the Spanish -- it might not help, but it won't hurt, and it shows that you've got a good language background in general.  And hey, studying the provinces is pretty hot right now -- if you focus on Roman Spain, it will be a definite need!

There are tons of intensive summer immersion programs for Latin or Greek -- I'd definitely recommend taking one if you can at all manage it (and put it on your CV).  CUNY has a program, UF, lots of places.  At least take another class or two of Latin or Greek at a local school, if possible.  Again, it's not just about getting in, it's about not wanting to kill yourself once you're there!

Good luck!

[racketsports]

Hi ktmallon82!

First of all, a disclaimer: I am not a medievalist, altho. I have experience with your subfield (including courses and a med. language).  Second disclaimer: I am at a university whose Medieval Studies program is top-notch. This might have skewed my ideas...

So, I would first say that Latin is key. More than anything else. I don't know a single medievalist who isn't at least 'good' at Latin (and by good I mean that they passed the Toronto MA Latin exam on try 2--believe me, that's good). However, this obviously depends on your school.  I just would assume that phd programs are a bit stricter about this...

Could you arrange to do an intensive summer Latin program, perhaps, with the goal of passing the U of T MA exam sooner rather than later? Your German, French are fine, I'm sure.  And your Spanish.  But I would say work on the Latin if you can.

Merce, I just saw your post...Am I being too extreme about this?

racketsports, who is not yet into Latin

[scheherazade]

After reading your responses, I saw that most of you are assuming the OP is a medievalist.  The OP is currently in a medieval studies program, but s/he is applying for PhD programs in ancient history.  That may change things a bit on some responses.

[2nd_career]

I'm just finishing up a Classics BA at an Ivy and and up until very late last fall was seriously looking at non-Top 10 Ancient History programs (I applied in Classical Archaeology).  I found they wanted applicants to be prepared to take grad. classes in one of the ancient languages on "day one" with the expectation that the other is at the intermediate undergrad level (typically 4 semesters worth).

So, it is possible that the OP might be a bit underprepared in the ancient languages.

As others have suggested, it might be a good idea to look into one of the many "summer intensive" programs. But first, contact the programs you're interested in and find out if there is a difference in what they want vs. what they'll accept.

Good Luck!

[ahhh_history]

When I was considering Ancient History programs, most of the top programs seemed to want fluency in at least 3 of the 4 languages (Latin, Greek, French, & German) coming in, and the other within a year or so.  As has been noted, the stress of this was often presented as so that language acquisition won't slow you down once you're in the program. 

What else you should be doing really depends on your focus for your dissertation.  If I wanted to write my dissertation on a topic similar to what my MA thesis covered, I would have had to learn Polish and a couple forms of Syriac, probably. 

[ktmallon82]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Very helpful, informative, and its really great to know that there is a *support* team out there!

Let me explain my situation a bit further, if I may. My research deals specifically in Roman North Africa, from around late 2nd/early 3rd century basically until the reconquest by the Byzantines in 533. The overwhelming majority of scholarship is French, followed by German in a distant second. Primary source reading is basically Latin, although obviously Byzantine studies require Greek..but I am dealing with North African prosopography, and that is entirely in Latin...To note, I studied in Firenze for a bit, and have Italian down. The problem isn't romance languages...it's the dead languages, which I think might kill me (bad pun very much intended)

But Latin has been on the periphery of my studies since my junior year as an undergrad, and ancient languages - at least Latin - come rather quickly to me. I asked my advisor, who got her Ph.D from Toronto, if it would be possible for me to pass their Latin exam. She said most definitely their master's, and perhaps their Ph.D exam. I'll be taking Latin for reading, as well as a course on ecclesiastical Latin over the summer, can study in August, then perhaps take some sort of Latin class in the fall. If it's any sort of barometer to where I am now in my studies, I am translating about 20 lines of de Consolatione Philosophiae a day (with help) from an advanced Latin student..which is really difficult Latin! (at least for me)

More importantly, and this is essential to understanding my application - is that I am taking 2-years to do a 30 credit program. I will have completed all my coursework, and hopefully have my thesis accepted by December - which will leave me the Spring and summer semesters to devote wholly to languages. So when I apply, it will basically be "I have X Y & Z language prep. now, but will be devoting what will be basically 8 months to language prep. For some reason I just don't think they will buy it!

I'm also really concerned that an admissions committee will look cock-eyed at my application when they see an M.A in Medieval Studies...is this a justifiable concern? My reason for taking the M.A in Medieval Studies, and not Classical Civilizations, which Columbia offers as an M.A - is because I am interested in Late Antiquity - the liminal historical period where *classical* and *medieval* meets. There is also a really well-published scholar here who has basically made her career on writing about North African topics. So, hopefully when I explain this to a committee it will all make sense. What do you think?

Also, how long should a personal statement be?

danke shein!

KTM

 

[typoqueen]

Hi KTM

I am in a related field at an Ivy where we have great Classics, Ancient History and Religious Studies programs.  One of the things I have notice is the number of incoming Ancient History  PhDs who essentially study Ancient Christianity (Perhaps there is some overlap with your work in 2nd and 3rd century North Africa).  Ancient Christianity students in Ancient History come into doctoral programs out of Divinity Schools and always have a strong background in Latin and Greek (at least two years of one and one of the other AT A MINIMUM).  French and German are a bonus, but most Ivies offer them as reading courses during the summer.

My point is, you are competing with people who might be wannabe classicists and religious studies people and therefore have very strong linguistic backgrounds.  My advice to you is to look around and see if you can find a summer intensive Greek program or Intermediate Latin program. If you can afford the money and time take it.  You can mention it in your applications.  Play up any unofficial linguistic experience you may have.

At the same time, don't downplay your medieval studies program.  You have a terminal MA and that puts you at an advantage over those coming out of undergraduate programs. You may want to leave the period of your intended study a little open-ended as though your work may extend into the late antique/early classical period.

Best of Luck to you!

TQ

Best of Luck I am sure you will do great.

[roarheels]

I wish you the best of luck but I think you are underselling the language requirements. Most PhD programs in history departments for ancient history require passage of both ancient languages by the second year, one normally to be done in the first. French and German by the start of the third. All must be completed before you advance to exams, not to dissertation, atleast in my experience. Moreover, the structure of history curriculums requires that the majority of your coursework focus on ancient historical topics. Thus language courses are difficult to take and incredibly time consuming. In my program we can only take them P/F unless they are doctoral level seminars on ancient historical authors. Seminars rarely provide much time to really read the sources in depth in the original, because the topics are thematically oriented towards particular disciplines of history or a particular period. For an historian interested in North African Prosopography, I suspect most programs will desire you to develop facility with Egyptian papyrology as a related discipline in addition to epigraphy, which is required for all. In short, go to Oxford or Cambridge. You seem to have a dissertation in mind, and you have an MA. If you have good Ivy league recs, you should be well received. Some colleges at both universities have overseas grants to lower costs, and you can just do the dissertation and be done. I only suggest this because your knowledge of Greek may prevent any admission to an American program, or atleast most that I applied to. Even with four semesters of Greek and tons of hard work, you would still have trouble reading sources for Roman history of the imperial period in the orginal. The English PhD is structured so vastly differently as to provide a much better outlet for historical energy without the impediments of language requirements.
   On an entirely unrelated note, you should consider what kind of job you desire. The vast majority of ancient history jobs are one offs in history departments with heavy teaching for classical civilization courses or coupled in classics departments (which often require the ability to teach intro language courses). Take a look at the APA listings to get sense and really think about the decisions you make. Post bac programs exist and they can be done to improve your languages quickly.

[magistra]

I'd be worried about your Greek.  Of course you'll need the Latin the most, and you need to polish that, but if you could get a year's worth of Greek down you might even get it out of the way -- depending on the program, they may not require any more (some only require one ancient language exam.)  Though of course if you can, take more Latin too.

Don't just think about what you need to get in; the truth is, you don't know.  Think about what you'll need once you get there.  If you truly need a good grounding in both languages, then yes, take the time to build your languages before you go -- put off applications for a year.  It's not a race.  If you need them for your work, you need them, and there are no shortcuts.  There'll be enough else you want to focus on when you get there.

How sure are you that this is what you want to do?  Sometimes you decide to change your project, or the person you'd hoped to work with leaves...allow for some flexibility.  It also helps when applying for jobs!

I think your Medievalist background won't hurt you; some programs like that kind of diversity, and it is related, so it may even help you get in.  Who knows, though -- the grad school market is about as bad as the job market.  I've got lots of crazy stories about where people did and didn't get in.  I definitely think Medieval Studies will help you get a job, although that's a crapshoot too.  I wouldn't worry too much about that now because the job market changes from year to year, has trends, etc.; you can't know what will be "hot" when you graduate.  Roar does have a good point, though, that it's the languages that are most in demand.  The better able you are to teach the languages and general civ classes the better off you'll be.  Diversity is the key.  You never know what minor project you did, or class you taught, that will get you the magic tt job, but the more diverse your interests and background the more likely you are to have the flexibility you'll need if you wish to or have to change your dissertation project, as well as helping with a job.

[ktmallon82]

Thank you all for your suggestions, I forgot to say that my scholarship behooves me to take classes for both summer sessions (two of which are Latin courses). I think that if I can pass the Toronto Ph.D exam, of which the latest feasible date I could take it and use it to show my Latin competence for grad school is Sept.4 [which gives me 211 days], and having French and German, that a school wouldn't necessarily be inclined to dismiss my application outright - being that I have *all* the other requirements (GRE GPA RECS ETC) and my own personal phony irish charm!...speaking of which...

Would you recommend meeting with professors whom you would enjoy studying under before applying? I am hesitant to e-mail these rockstars of history with no introduction, and hopefully can get letters of introduction sent by some current professors of mine to these people. And as I live in the NY/NJ/CT area, so Yale, Columbia, Princeton, even Cornell, are rather feasible destinations. I've been told that if a professor *wants* you, then you're basically in, provided you have the basic requirements.

I was also thinking - 730 verbal, 600 quan, 5.0 writing, this is *acceptable* for a top 10 program?

TY!

KM

[magistra]

It can't hurt to write an e-mail to introduce yourself and ask.  It's not a given that you'll get in if a professor wants you -- there are too many variables -- but it can help, sometimes quite a lot.  If they blow you off, fine, but I'd do it if you know whom you'd like to work with.  Arrange campus visits if you can too -- see the library, etc.  These contacts can be useful not only to help you get in, but to make sure you really want to go these places.

Remember, though, that most PhD programs can only accept a tiny number of applicants.  Michigan's Classics program only accepts 5 a year -- and they don't always look at graduate work.

How many schools are you applying to?  It sounds like a lot.

[captain_obvious]

I know absolutely nothing about ancient history, but I can tell you two things for sure:

#1 Contacting professors before (or while) applying is definitely to your benefit, even without introduction.  If you can, dropping a name in this might be helpful.  Be enthusiastic, be knowledgeable about the professor's work, and be sensitive to her busy schedule.  Don't get bogged down in the minutia of your questions in this first email--you're just trying to open a conversation, not force some unsuspecting and harried prof to read an endless message from a stranger.  My own emails of this sort tended to run something like this:

"Dear Professor Big Name,
I'm applying to Top University for a PhD in basketweaving.  I graduated two years ago from Another Top University, and my undergrad adviser, Professor Young Star, suggested that I get in touch with you.  I'm interested in the connections among X, Y, and Z, particularly as they relate to A and B.  I know that your work addresses many of these same issues, and I'd appreciate any thoughts you might be able to share on the program at Top University and how these issues are approached within the department.

Of course, I realize this is a busy time of year and would be grateful for any few minutes you can spare. 

Sincerely,
C.O."

#2 Those GRE scores are definitely sufficient to get you into an Ivy.  I mean, GRE scores in history programs are far from the mos significant part of the application, but those scores certainly won't keep you out.



Good luck!
C.O.