next »

[zharkov]

Fast forward to the 21st century.....

The per capita GDP of Ireland is greater than that of the UK.  Whatever the costs and baggage of the Brit conquest, I think Ireland has moved beyond that.

[secretweapon]

This thread needs to die.

[larryc]

This thread needs to die.

More discrimination!

[scheherazade]

Fast forward to the 21st century.....

The per capita GDP of Ireland is greater than that of the UK.  Whatever the costs and baggage of the Brit conquest, I think Ireland has moved beyond that.

Perhaps - except you are forgetting Northern Ireland.

[zharkov]

Fast forward to the 21st century.....

The per capita GDP of Ireland is greater than that of the UK.  Whatever the costs and baggage of the Brit conquest, I think Ireland has moved beyond that.

Perhaps - except you are forgetting Northern Ireland.

I actually think that the economic prosperity of the Republic of Ireland has helped tone down, if not defuse, the conflicts in the North.

[kaysixteen]

I suspect being 'Irish' in this country historically is something like being a Native American, in this sense: an anthropology prof I had once, an expert in Amerinds, noted that the number of people claiming to be at least partially Native American, on the decennial censuses, has changed significantly over the years based at least in large part on how popular and what-not being an 'Indian' is at the time of said census.  Today, methinks tribes running casino operations, for instance, need to spend real time and money screening all those who claim to be long-lost/ disaffected tribal members, whereas 100 years ago many legitimate members of the same tribes publicly tried to pass as whites.  Similarly, there really was a time when 'No Irish Need Apply' signs were commonplace in Boston, but not any time recently.  And those thousands and thousands of people in the American south whose ancestors at least in part were southern Irish (usually only nominally Catholic when they arrived here prior to the late 19th century Irish-Catholic 'devotion revolution', have so completely assimilated into the larger 'Southern' culture (which is after all more or less based on the closely-related Scotch-Irish culture anyhow) so as to have more or less 'forgotten' their 'Irishness', even when their name is Murphy, O'Brien, whatever.

[helpful]

Ignatieff makes the point that the Irish decided they could survive, ironically, by assimilating into American white society.

From a review:

"In the first half of the 19th century, some three million Irish emigrated to America, trading a ruling elite of Anglo-Irish Anglicans for one of WASPs. The Irish immigrants were (self-evidently) not Anglo-Saxon; most were not Protestant; and, as far as many of the nativists were concerned, they weren't white, either. Just how, in the years surrounding the Civil War, the Irish evolved from an oppressed, unwelcome social class to become part of a white racial class is the focus of Harvard lecturer Ignatiev's well-researched, intriguing although haphazardly structured book. By mid-century, Irish voting solidarity gave them political power, a power augmented by the brute force of groups descended from the Molly Maguires. With help, the Irish pushed blacks out of the lower-class jobs and neighborhoods they had originally shared. And though many Irish had been oppressed by the Penal Laws, they opposed abolition?even when Daniel O'Connell, "the Liberator," threatened that Irish-Americans who countenanced slavery would be recognized "as Irishmen no longer."

[iomhaigh]

Fast forward to the 21st century.....

The per capita GDP of Ireland is greater than that of the UK.  Whatever the costs and baggage of the Brit conquest, I think Ireland has moved beyond that.

In reality, probably. 

In the cold stubborn hands of my relatives?  Hell, no.  The ascendancy still lives and still needs to be forcibly removed from the motherland.   You steal my moonshine, sheep or land, and I'll crack you upside the head with my shilelagh if you're close or a piece of peat if you're a wee bit off from me.


I never knew the lyrics to Danny Boy until I hit grad school and got tired of people being amazed that I didn't know the lyrics.  I still don't know them beyond "Oh Danny Boy, the Pipes, the Pipes are calling...."   I think it's time to break out the tin whistle and start up a hornpipe.   


(We're shanty Irish, btw, and we make our own booze in the bathtub.  I've had a little tonight, obviously.)

[dr_stones]

Ireland moved on ....  now, is there an object lesson in there?  Perhaps eighty years of throwing off the yoke of English rule had something to do with it?

How are the Northern counties fairing compared to the rest of the UK?

[scheherazade]

Fast forward to the 21st century.....

The per capita GDP of Ireland is greater than that of the UK.  Whatever the costs and baggage of the Brit conquest, I think Ireland has moved beyond that.

Perhaps - except you are forgetting Northern Ireland.

I actually think that the economic prosperity of the Republic of Ireland has helped tone down, if not defuse, the conflicts in the North.

I have to disagree.  The conflicts in the North have toned down because the British finally decided that attempting to grind the Catholic Irish under their collective boot wasn't working.  They finally cracked down a bit on the Protestant terrorist groups that were beating and murdering Catholics (oh, and BTW, were far more closely linked to Protestant political parties than the IRA ever was to Sinn Fein).  They finally made some small reforms in hiring practices that had kept Catholics poor and often unemployed for centuries.  (Council house neighborhoods are almost exclusively Catholic.)  They finally stopped allowing the police to beat the crap out of peaceful Catholics.  They finally pulled out many of the troops that were being used to "keep the peace."  They finally allowed Sinn Fein a meaningful voice in government.

What many Americans don't quite get is that there were very, very good reasons why the Northern Irish Catholics aided and supplied the IRA.  No one else - not the Republic, not the Brits, not anyone - was willing to stand up and defend them.  I'm not endorsing the bombing of pubs, mind you.  But if I lived there in the same conditions?  I can't guarantee I'd say the same.

[dundee]

By the way, "Danny Boy" is not an Irish song (at least not the lyrics). It was written by Fred Weatherly, an English lawyer who never went to Ireland, and set to a traditional Irish tune. Irish-Americans (and those who wish they were) often mistake it for an Irish song.

[iomhaigh]

What many Americans don't quite get is that there were very, very good reasons why the Northern Irish Catholics aided and supplied the IRA.  No one else - not the Republic, not the Brits, not anyone - was willing to stand up and defend them.  I'm not endorsing the bombing of pubs, mind you.  But if I lived there in the same conditions?  I can't guarantee I'd say the same.

This astonishes me (not that I'm surprised or doubt the veracity of your point), but I'm having an "oh, duh" moment here. 

I'm never particularly surprised at people's willingness to revert to such tactics (bombing pubs, hijackings, etc.).  I've been in a more than a few conversations where people have looked at me aghast when I suggested that perhaps the perpertrators of [pick your bombing] might have felt that they have no other choice to effect change, etc. 

My family spent so much time arguing the pros and cons of the IRA when I was a child (and still) that I cannot conceive of not understanding that there is a point at which you might resort to pub bombings. 

Huh.  Well, that explains an awful lot.  Thanks, scheherazade. 

[bewildered]

I do believe that during the busing controversy in Boston in the early 1970s, white working class folks in places like Southie thought the whole thing was just another case of English bosses screwing over the Irish workers.  I.e., the (Anglos) in the government, with their own kids in private schools, were forcing the (Irish) workers' kids to ride an hour into another neighborhood to mix with African-American kids.

Whether it's still active in contemporary "diversity" politics I couldn't say.

[scheherazade]

Iomhaigh - My senior undergrad thesis was on the Troubles.  I attended a small LAC with a fairly sheltered, suburban population.  Yeah, that research was fun to discuss with my fellow students.  Almost none of them understood.

Them: But violence to solve a problem is never OK!
Me: OK, then.  So...what about the Revolutionary War?
Them: That's not even close to the same thing.
Me: You're right.  We started a war (and, incidentally, attacked Loyalist civilians regularly) because we were pissed about taxes.  They started a war because they'd been systematically starved and impoverished.  I think the IRA may actually hold the moral high ground here.
Them: (pause) Are you some sort of liberal?  People like you are the reason terrorists are successful.
Me: People like you are the reason terrorists exist in the first place.

My advisor loved it when he caught these conversations - he would watch on with glee while I verbally backhanded these people into a stutter.  And, in the interests of full disclosure, I can't say I didn't always enjoy it myself - until it got tedious and irritating.  I mean, really, how many small-minded people are there?  (Don't answer that.  Please.)

Oh, and I would love to hear your family's discussions on the IRA.  My family doesn't have a clue (being that they're not Irish, I guess I can't entirely blame them).

[fiona]

My great-uncle was in the IRA and proud of it.

That's pretty much all I know, but I thought I'd brag on him anyway.

The Fiona