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[noof_]

I am not sure this is the right place for this question, but here it goes:

Recently I learned that there is a[n] (unspoken) policy concerning admitting international students. The policy is don't do it.

Grad students are funded through teaching. Apparently, my department has found that students who come from countries where English is not the spoken language don't speak fluently/plainly/clearly/effectively enough to teach.

This is distressing. Is this common among departments that use teaching as the primary means of funding graduate students?

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get around this? I am looking into grants that would fund a GA, but surely there are other options.

Of course this isn't an issue if the student can afford to pay full tuition. I suppose that is a possibility given the value of the dollar at the moment, but still ...

[sir_lancelot]

I don't know what field you are in. In my field you wouldn't be able to do research if you didn't have international students. Domestic students don't exactly gravitate towards fields that require a lot of effort.

[noof_]

Do your students teach? Does it matter if undergrads are unable to comprehend what international grad students are saying due to language difficulties (for lack of a better word at the moment)?

[sir_lancelot]

Do your students teach? Does it matter if undergrads are unable to comprehend what international grad students are saying due to language difficulties (for lack of a better word at the moment)?

Some do, some don't. Depends if they are on TAs or RAs. I am not saying it's not (sometimes) a problem. I am saying we couldn't live without them so we make do. On the other hand, most of our faculty are also foreign and most of our students are going to work in international environments of one kind or another and with people with language difficulties. So, if they are not yet used to the fact that people come from different places and we all need to play in the same sandbox, they better get used to it fast.

[takapa]

We do not have a policy on international students, but anyone who would TA a class must be able to communicate effectively.  Of course, there are many ways to communicate effectively that do not include spoken English....

[secretweapon]

The top school where I did my undergrad degree gave teaching fellowships as doctoral funding.  One department relied heavily on TAs for its first year courses and had a very high intake of international students.  Few of these TAs spoke English effectively - this was in a social sciences field that drew mostly from east Asia.  It wasn't a case of having a heavy accent - I had a TA who really couldn't put a sentence together.  Now, maybe they were fabulous in their field, but they should not have been teaching - especially not first years. 

I sometimes felt bad for them, but I felt a lot worse for me and I regret that I didn't make a formal complaint.  I was definitely not getting my money's worth!  This situation made relations between the professors and undergrads very sour, because the students took the TA situation to mean that the professors did not value undergraduate education or care whether we learned anything.

[bigsky]

If they are going to teach require a minimum TOEFL score. It isn't fair to the undergrads, or the grad student, to have to suffer through a semester/year. We have made accomodations for students whose English was not strong. It takes extra effort on the part of the TA supervisor but it can be done. We have been pleasantly surprised at how good some have turned out. They make the US graduate students look pretty bad when they outperform some of them that have a bad attitude about teaching (a small percentage).

[noof_]

I asked about TOEFL. The exam does assure the person can speak English in a way that is discernible to others, only that the person is proficient enough with the written word.

Not admitting international students based on teaching limitations does a disservice to our department and the university, imho. Isn't this another way to promote diversity? He!!, there are people in other regions of the United States who are difficult to understand. No one would dream of not admitting a student from said region(s) because of a language barrier - even if one exists from the undergrads' standpoint.

If we make accommodations for people with learning and physical disabilities, why not work with students as bigsky suggests? I admit, as a first year tt professor, I don't have time to supervise a student that has difficulty verbally communicating with hu's students. I just find it difficult to understand how a department in an R-1 can pass up the opportunity to bring brilliant students into the program.

[mended_drum]

I never had a TA I couldn't understand, but I did attend a school where one of the departments had severe problems in this regard.  As a result, first year international students who were not native English speakers could not teach (though they could act as graders or researchers) until they had demonstrated competence in conversational English.  That did not involve the approval of undergraduates, but a demonstration, followed by a question-and-answer session, attended by several faculty members.  International students were informed of this requirement during the admissions process.  Most students passed easily, but a few could not.  Those were not given funding as TAs until and unless they improved (and there were conversational English classes to help them do so).  This seems to me to be a reasonable compromise which neither plays to undergraduate xenophobia nor sticks undergrads with teachers with whom they can't communicate.

[secretweapon]

I asked about TOEFL. The exam does assure the person can speak English in a way that is discernible to others, only that the person is proficient enough with the written word.

Bingo!  But this is no reason not to have international students - you just need to assess their level of spoken English (perhaps with an interview, or after they arrive), and if necessary require them to take a spoken English conversation class. Don't let them teach until they are up to scratch.  International students might need more investment from you, but it is worth it - for you and for them.

[noof_]

I asked about TOEFL. The exam does *not* assure the person can speak English in a way that is discernible to others, only that the person is proficient enough with the written word.

Bingo!  But this is no reason not to have international students - you just need to assess their level of spoken English (perhaps with an interview, or after they arrive), and if necessary require them to take a spoken English conversation class. Don't let them teach until they are up to scratch.  International students might need more investment from you, but it is worth it - for you and for them.

I agree. An interview is a great idea.

Grinnellns, I will run something like this by my department chair. Thanks.

[bigsky]

We do the interview. Actually, our Grad Chair will call the students to assess their conversational skills.

[ladeebug]

I am shocked to hear that there are departments who won't admit international students just based on a prejudice. I am an international student myself, a non-native speaker, I have an accent and have been working as a TA since the my very first month living in the U.S. In fact, I funded my entire doctorate solely thanks to the four-year TAship I was offered. I have had hundreds of students and only one complained about my accent in written evaluations.

Before being given a TAship, I had to take the TSE (Test of Spoken English), which is run by the same people that are behind the TOEFL.

Ah, did I mention that some of my former students recently nominated me for a teaching award?

Did I also mention that I have been told (by the powers that be, not a sympathetic relative) that I am one of the top doctoral students of all time, both for my activities in teaching and research?

And that I just landed a t-t position, having received two early job offers and having overall 7 campus visits lined up?

All of this with a pretty heavy accent, baby!

Sorry for all this bragging, I just get indignant about this near-sighted bull about international students.

(By the way, I can't believe how poorly a ton of Americans who are in college or even in graduate school  write and speak, honestly)

[ladeebug]

Folks, my apologies.

I meant to say that I have been told that I am one of the top grad students ever *in my program*.

*Not* one of the top, period.

I feel already a bit weird about my (indignant) bragging, and claiming to be one of the top ever anywhere anyhow is way too much.

Sorry. But I still think what I said in the rest of the post, ok? ;-)

[unspoiled]

As an ex-international student, I'm shocked you're shocked, ladeebug.

First, congratulations on being so accomplished.  Second, please understand that even though "truth and hard work always win in the end", especially in this country, almost everyone encounters prejudice and adversity as an immigrant along the way - in any country.  I am not even sure there was a hostile intention in the OP' s post - or anyone's post, for that matter. Most people cannot fathom writing in a foreign language for a living.  It is like being reborn. 

Also, no bragging here either, but some non-native speakers do better than others for reasons that have nothing to do with diligence, based on how early they started the study of English as a second language (their parents' choice) and how similar their native language structure is to that of their adopted language.  Just because you and I were able to breeze through the system grace to 95-99th percentiles in the GRE and TOEFL and slight accents (in the sciences you may even get by, quite respectably, with a heavy accent) does not mean that every international student evolves the same. 

Which brings me to my main point.  Regardless of extenuating circumstances, the foreign-born professor should not stop trying to better himself/herself and act self-congratulatory.  It shouldn't be the student's problem s/he does not understand someone's teaching if the fluency and structure are not up to par.  Not even a perfect or near-perfect quantitative score in the GREs will help such a confused student.  At least in the sciences, many people are allowed to teach tenure-track without even mastering schematic elements of English, just because their research is spectacular.  This is not fair to other international students who invested heavily in English and chose to uproot themselves and their families for a "better", i.e. high-tech education here.  Nor is it fair to American-born students who had to pay for their nine required courses in Shakespeare and Tennyson before they could get their hands on that dream TA/RA in biomedical engineering. 

There is no "us" foreigners and "them" Americans in my opinion.  There is acceptable English and unacceptable English.