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[zharkov]

This posting was inspired by a question in  the grad school forum, where the poster was wondering about dropping out of a bricks and mortar master's program in favor of an online program.  I made the following comment:

Distance ed programs are, IMHO, really made for people who would have a lot of difficulty attending more traditional programs.  If you can get your degree from a bricks and mortar school, then that is the way to go.

Let me expand a bit on my comment.  First, I have developed and taught online and hybrid course, and consider myself a supporter of distance learning and non-traditional education.  Second, I see distance ed to be another flavor of continuing ed or an extension school. The first choice for most students should be to matriculate full time during the day, but that is not possible for all learners.  People with jobs and families take night classes, or nothing.  Mid career professionals get doctorates at Nova or Union.  And so on.  Third, while I believe that some exposure to distance learning is a plus for bricks and mortar undergrads, I think the mis-perception that online learning is easier leads prospective students to make poor choices in deciding between bricks and mortar vs. online programs.

[dept_geek]

Having completed my BS and MS as a shift worker (rotated shifts on a weekly basis), I would have been thrilled to have a distance learning option. Instead, I had to miss classes and my grades & learning suffered, I believe.  Not all learners have a stable schedule.

In the discussions of distance learning, we also need to differentiate between those institutions that offer 100% distance learning (No on-campus courses of any length are ever offered) and those traditionally brick 'n' mortar institutions that happen to offer courses or programs in an online format - in addition to a traditional classroom format.

I hope you are not painting both with the same broad brush.

I think the mis-perception that online learning is easier leads prospective students to make poor choices in deciding between bricks and mortar vs. online programs.

This I agree with. My WDF rate is very high because students wrongly believe that they don't have to schedule 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever hours per week to dedicate to the course because that time is not in the schedule book. They are *shocked* when they discover they will have to work on their own time. A serious chunk of time during week one is dedicated to correcting this fallacy.

[larryc]

I teach most of my load online and just helped put together a statewide online MA program in my discipline and I agree with everything Zharkov wrote.

The perception that online courses are easier is damaging in two ways. Like  Dept_Geek I spend much of the first few weeks of my online classes simply trying to convince students that they are going to have to work hard. But still my D-F-W rates are appalling.

The other problem with the online = easy idea is that it lessens the value of online degrees to employers and graduate schools.

[bamabound]

Y'all have good points.  I currently teach online at a CC and also completed my Masters' online.  When I completed my Masters', I worked full-time plus I had kids, volunteer commitments and no time to go to class:  Distance Learning was the only way I would have been able to comlete my degree.  But I never thought it would be easy and ended up spending 25-35 hours a week studying for each class, taking only one class at a time.

My best students now are determined and realize that taking an online class is usually harder than one in person.  I always hammer it in to students that online is not less work, just that the work can be organized around the student's life, work and other activities. 

[finallyfullprof]

Who is distance ed for? Ideally, it's for anyone who wants it and is willing to do what is required. It's for the person who can manage time well enough to do it and who has the time to devote to a class, but not necessarily on a rigid schedule of X time on Y day.  It's for the person who has enough aptitude in a given subject to be able to learn somewhat on his or her own but also understands how and when to ask for help.

Who is distance ed not for? It's not for people who just "like to surf the Web." It's not for people who need one more class and figure that online will be quicker and easier.  It's not for people who don't have regular computer access. It's not for people who don't understand that 9 hours per week is the MINIMUM they'll have to spend with an online class.  It's not for people who aren't already somewhat computer literate.

Almost everyone has problems with withdrawal and productive grade rates in online classes. I don't think this demonstrates a failure of Internet learning as much as it does a failure of counseling and a failure of students to find out what they are getting themselves into.  I have a pretty rigorous gate-keeping requirement I use before census to get people out of my classes who I know are going to end up not making it.  It makes my classes look low-enrolled on census day sometimes, but I don't care because at least then my PGR and W rates are the actual result of what took place in my classes rather than people's experimenting with taking a class and never logging in or doing just the class intro and then disappearing.

[magistra]

You might be interested in this article, on free access to classes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/30/AR2007123002796.html?hpid=sec-education

[onilne_adjunct]

I would agree with OP that the class format serves those best that can't attend a traditional class.  Having said that, though, it should be kept in mind at all times that the online environment isn't for everyone, regardless of whether they're unable to attend a B&M class.

Here are a couple of examples:

Schools (secondary ed), along with Mommy and Daddy, spend too much time focusing on getting students into college that we're willing to provide alternative means for them (such as Running Start).  These students, for the most part (not all cases), aren't prepared, either intellectually, academically, or socially.  Putting one of these students into an online learning environment, where the need for self direction is paramount, wastes everyone's time.  This is a pure case of leading a horse to water...

Even if a student graduates from high school, is he or she suitable for college?  In all too many cases, seriously doubt it.  There's a reason why many CC instructors spend so much time on remedial coursework.  They need to get students who aren't academically prepared for college ready for college (while in college - sorta like OJT). Then there's the case of the student who doesn't have the mental ability to solve things at a higher ed level.  What's that person doing in college in the first place?  In neither case should that student be involved in OL.  They have enough difficulty being in the class with a prof who can hold their hand.

Other students are simply incapable of managing their time well enough to complete the work.  If these students weren't in the physical classroom, where the prof can tell them what they need to do each class, guiding them through, they wouldn't succeed (and even then it's touch and go, but I think being in physical proximity to the prof, rather than being disconnected through cyberspace, helps tremendously).

OL is definitely for those willing to take their education into their own hands.  If a class is well developed, the student can come away with a fantastic education.  I know, in my own case, that my online students learn more than when I taught similar classes in the classroom.  This is because I'm not spending all my time lecturing, rather I can spend it grading (hence, more assignments for the students).  While students lose something in the lack of a formal lecture format, the ability to have more directed learning can obviate this problem (somewhat).

I think that as OL progresses, standards will develop that schools will need to meet or exceed in order to maintain accreditation.  Having classes observed (as LarryC's are - I like your idea there on enrolling the dean) will help this.  We've all heard/read horror stories about instructors who put up the class and never return, or classes that only require an hour or two per week (then again, I had some like that as an undergrad at my alma mater).  Until this situation is resolved, and OL starts to get the respect that many of us are working toward, we'll still have many view it as either an easy alternative to a "real" education, or not really an education (see comments in other fora concerning how an online grad degree is perceived).

Just my two cents worth (and you get what you pay for).

OA

[expatinuk]

I think that one of the biggest problems with the way that DL is approached is that in too many cases it tries to replicate the classroom experience.

Perhaps because my field is new media the thought of putting classes online is just ... well... it's what we need to be doing. I've just developed an online degree in conjunction with 5 European Universities. It's aimed at the professional who is currently working in the new media industry. Each university contributes a set number of classes. Students enroll and remain students at their home institution, but they take classes from all of the institutions... they are virtual exchange students.

So when they take an Estonian class they have to follow the class schedule and structure in Estonia. We're promoting this as a shared European experience.

The other thing that I've done in ALL the years I've been teaching online (since 1994) is to have outside guests contribute to the discussion. My guests have ranged from people who are well known in the industry to (my fave) a single mother who had NO education, yet managed to support her five children - quite well I might add - by doing live strip shows on the net with a webcam.

We are now working on an idea that will go across classes and will involve Second Life. Students will work together in cross cultural teams to build an artifact in Second Life. The next semester they have to sell their creation and earn Linden Dollars. The two classes involved are: Project Management and Entrepreneurship in New Media.

So, who is DL for? It can be for anyone as long as the instructor implements it in a manner to use the environment to its best.

[romansroad]

Bamabound
Did you find it difficult to get you teaching job with an online degree?

[bamabound]

Bamabound
Did you find it difficult to get you teaching job with an online degree?

No, actually I was literally offered an adjunct job on the spot, probably because of my industry experience and connections.  I only teach online because I have a full-time job and like being able to "teach" at the dining room table while I help the kids with their homework.  I have been offered face-to-face teaching opportunities - which I am interested in but I will not take them until my kids have graduated HS and are away at college in about three years' time.   

However, I have no illusions that my degree would get me a tenure-track job.  Perhaps at my current CC but unlikely.