walrus2010
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« on: December 19, 2007, 10:28:16 AM » |
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I know that legally age isn't supposed to make a difference in hiring decisions, but is that true? If so, when is one getting too old to be seriously considered for good tenure-track positions?
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larryc
Hu hatin'
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 18,285
Eschew the hu.
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2007, 10:31:51 AM » |
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Unanswerable. But a couple of years ago a 57 year old new PhD turned down our offer in favor of a better one.
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prytania3
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2007, 10:34:09 AM » |
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I teach at a CC (where most new hires now have PhD's), and we have hired a lot of profs on the t-t who have retired from other systems.
I don't think academia discriminates by age nearly as much as the private sector.
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Clowns, I tell you. Clowns.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2007, 04:28:56 PM » |
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I also have the feeling that it's slightly field-dependent. For example, my field is education, so a WHOLE lot of us put in time as K-12 educators before going to grad school, and getting a Ph.D. at 40-ish is not at all unusual. (I'm 48, so on the downhill side of that curve, but hoping it won't matter!)
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"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey
"Be particular." Jill Conner Browne
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katherineparr
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2007, 05:19:30 PM » |
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There has been a lot of discussion of this, walrus, sometimes on threads devoted to other aspects of hiring.
Many people find no problem with a candidate who is not 30, and a lot of anecdotal evidence suggests that it's fine. On the other hand, there are members of the forum who have experienced a great deal of trouble finding a job, and who are convinced it was because of their age.
What Larryc didn't say here, though he has said it many times before, is that you can drive yourself nuts with this kind of stuff. Be the best applicant you can be, and from that point just remember that the system is irrational.
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mdwlark
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2007, 09:08:44 PM » |
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It is never too late. At least I hope so.
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conjugate
Compulsive punster and insatiable reader, and
Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 17,026
Tends to have warped sense of humor
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2007, 09:21:10 PM » |
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Oh, come now. Surely none of us would hire a 102-year-old assistant professor. Still, I think an applicant in his/her 50s would probably not be terribly tainted with the brush of "too old." In the mid-60s, perhaps, though it might be different if applying for a senior appointment.
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Unfortunately, I think conjugate gives good advice.
∀ε>0∃δ>0∋|xa|<δ⇒|(x)-(a)|<ε |
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georgia_guy
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 09:21:32 PM » |
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If you are under 40, and in a business field, you will be likely to have to defend your lack of experience.
If you are over 75, they might want proof that you can stand for 75 minutes at a stretch. Unless you are in accounting or finance, in which case they will want to see if you can fog a mirror.
Seriously, it's very field dependent.
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I'm the bad guy? How'd that happen
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historian
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2007, 09:23:17 PM » |
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Unless you are in accounting or finance, in which case they will want to see if you can fog a mirror.
that last line is HOF material! |
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alshealy: "Nothing says 'retreating from society' like learning to play the banjo."
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mdwlark
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 10:03:27 PM » |
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Oh, come now. Surely none of us would hire a 102-year-old assistant professor. Still, I think an applicant in his/her 50s would probably not be terribly tainted with the brush of "too old." In the mid-60s, perhaps, though it might be different if applying for a senior appointment.
I have to get in the right frame of mind for these interviews. They can really pound my self confidence. It is a lot better psychology for me to tell myself "It is never too late," than to tell myself, "I'm not yet too old to be considered, or am I?" If it is helpful for you to say to yourself, "I haven't hit my 60's yet, so maybe there is a little hope," then that is what you should tell yourself. That isn't affirming enough for me. |
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mdwlark
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2007, 02:08:07 AM » |
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Oh, come now. Surely none of us would hire a 102-year-old assistant professor. Still, I think an applicant in his/her 50s would probably not be terribly tainted with the brush of "too old." In the mid-60s, perhaps, though it might be different if applying for a senior appointment.
And who knows, the right 102 year old.... |
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conjugate
Compulsive punster and insatiable reader, and
Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 17,026
Tends to have warped sense of humor
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2007, 03:25:17 AM » |
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Oh, come now. Surely none of us would hire a 102-year-old assistant professor. Still, I think an applicant in his/her 50s would probably not be terribly tainted with the brush of "too old." In the mid-60s, perhaps, though it might be different if applying for a senior appointment.
And who knows, the right 102 year old.... Indeed, who knows. And for the right position; if they're not hiring their fourth person in four years, they may not be so insistent on somebody who will stick around for twenty years. On the other hand, if they are replacing somebody who last year replaced somebody who, the year before, replaced somebody who...(etc.) then perhaps they want a candidate who will be long-term so they don't have to worry about the freakin' SC duty for a while. Until they retire, at least. The nice thing about academia is that for the most part, it's low wear and tear on the individual. Where a football player might be about to retire at 30-something, and a baseball player at 40-something, an academic at sixty-something might be right in the middle of a good career. You can't say, well, that rotator cuff won't hold out forever when the greatest strain on the shoulder muscles is lifting a dry-erase marker instead of hurling a fastball. You don't have to worry about concussions or damage to the ACLı from pacing back and forth in front of a class. My point, then, is that age is not strictly a limitation in academics the way it is in a more physically demanding occupation. Consider the New York Times piece about the physics professor at MIT who has become a famous YouTube star due to his physics lectures². Pretty impressive for a guy in his 70s, and probably somebody who any school would be happy to hire if he applied there. I wouldn't have gone on so long, but I wanted to test my footnoting ability. ıAnterior Cruciae Ligament; part of your knee that, if damaged, means you shouldn't play football any more. Or run in anything but a straight line. Possibly misspelled, as I ain't no sports medicine guy. ²See the story (free registration required) at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/education/19physics.html?_r=1&oref=slogin |
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Unfortunately, I think conjugate gives good advice.
∀ε>0∃δ>0∋|xa|<δ⇒|(x)-(a)|<ε |
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daniel_von_flanagan
<redacted>
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 9,463
Works all day. Posts all night. Needs sleep.
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2007, 04:33:29 AM » |
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On the other hand, there are members of the forum who have experienced a great deal of trouble finding a job, and who are convinced it was because of their age. Which of course does not mean that it was in fact because of their age. For various reasons my department has some glaring gaps where there should be more bodies, and at search time it is very difficult not to be extra-positively disposed towards people at one of those ages, but this slight bias is very easily outweighed by a candidate's quality. - DvF |
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The U.S. Education Department is establishing a new national research center to study colleges' ability to successfully educate the country's growing numbers of academically underprepared administrators.
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katherineparr
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2007, 10:23:55 AM » |
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Which of course does not mean that it was in fact because of their age.
This is precisely what I meant to imply. |
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jane001
New member
Posts: 12
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2007, 05:52:30 PM » |
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Dear all,
I'm new to the Chronicle Forums and just found this thread. Thank you! I have submitted over 40 post doc applications. Well actually here in the UK many of them are branded as JRFs through colleges and so can state that they don't want apps from anyone who has done more than three/four years of graduate research (read 1 year M.A. and 3 year PhD) and candidates are under the age of 30. The exclusionary process has always been in place, it is only recently that it was clearly stated. Yes, they can do this as they are in a sense private colleges and fund the research fellowships not the government. So a great deal of time on proposals that were trashed as soon as they saw my age.
However, it has cheered me up no end to know that age bias is not as strong in North America - my preference! Of course having said that, I am aware of the intense competition in the academic job market.
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