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[slipdisco]

I know that this is a hot and controversial topic that people have definite opinions about.  This is why I'm seeking advice.

I am a 48 year man who is in the third year of a tenure-track at a large CC in the midwest.  Prior to obtaining my tt position, I worked in the substance abuse treatment field (24 years), as well as adjuncting (10 years) at two community colleges.  My master's degree is in communication theory and methodology and I teach a variety of speech communication courses.  Part of my teaching load involves teaching in a developmental education learning community.  I gave this background as a lead to my question.  I am very interested in obtaining a doctorate.  Initially, I thought I wanted the doctorate to be in communication studies.  But, as time passes, I've become more interested in combining communication studies with developmental education studies.  Specifically, I am interested in conflict management, interpersonal communication, assertiveness, and how these issues impact the attainment of a person's goals -- specifically their educational goals.

Having mentioned all of this, I've been investigating many distance education programs.  Of course, when I mention this to the traditional Ph.Ds, I get shot down immediately.  I've looked at the Union Institute, Fielding, Nova Southeastern, Lesley University, Saybrook, Walden, Capella, just to mention a few.  Each school seems to have something that I could use.  This is especially true of Union (interdisciplinary Ph.D.) and Nova (Ph.D. in Conflict Analysis and Resolution).  I know that all of these programs are accredited.  So, that is not the problem.  I just want to be sure that I am not making a mistake by possibly enrolling in a program that is viewed as a sham by the traditonal academics.

By the way,  the institution I work for does not require doctorates for tenure.  But, they certainly like to see work toward it in your tenure portfolio.  Also, for salary advancement, you have to take course work.

Any advice, guidance, or help would be greatly appreciated.  I'm exhausted thinking about it.  My school will fully accept the degree as long as it is accredited, in your field, and applicable to your teaching.

Lastly, I don't know what my aspirations are after tenure (accept that I would like to keep teaching and add some research to the mix).  I mention this because I know that many will say that if I'm going to attempt a move to a four-year school, I should only investigate traditional brick and mortal schools.  I truly don't know.  I do know that getting my doctorate is a personal goal.  But, I truly believe that it will add to my body of knowledge.  And, this will be reflected in my classroom.

Thanks!

[zharkov]

Academia is a generally conservative place -- despite what people say -- and a good number of people will dismiss any non-traditional degree offhand, that is, with absolutely no experience in distance ed, say.  I'd say that non traditional degrees have the most credibility for CC and 4 year schools, but are really not (yet) accepted by R1 universities.

Of the schools you listed, Nova and Union have the better reputations among the non traditionals, and I think that I'd include Fielding and Saybrook, although I see them as mostly psych schools. (I may be wrong.)  IMHO, Capella and Walden have yet to prove themselves, ditto for Phoenix.  Lesley has been around for 75 years and was a teacher training women's college across the street from Harvard until about 20 years ago, and has since been expanding into new areas.  It has a very real brick and mortar operation in Cambridge Mass. Other brick and mortar schools that have non traditional doctoral programs include GWU in DC and Franklin Pierce in NH. Depending on where you live, you may want to check them out. (Some residency is required, I believe.)

[prephd]

I should only investigate traditional brick and mortal schools. 

Mortals are certainly important! (Couldn't resist).

I know nothing of your field, but I'd start looking most seriously at traditional brick-and-mortar universities that may have non-traditional programs.

[slipdisco]

Great observation about the "brick and mortal" schools.  Could that be a slip?  I had to laugh when I saw the post because I am always screaming at my students about proofreading.  I should take my own advice.

Yesterday, I was attending a boring committee meeting and we started discussing doctoral programs.  I mentioned my interests and that fact that I am considering distance education.  Immediately, one of my colleagues chimed in with the response "I hope its not Nova."  Of course, I had to follow this up.  As I suspected, he knew nothing about any doctoral distance education programs.  He was just spouting off his opinions that were not based on any factual information.

I find it so bizarre that academia is so reluctant to accept distance education doctorates.  This is particularly true since the trend in all education is toward online courses and full online degrees.  We encourage it at the undergraduate and master's (in some cases) levels, but shun it at the doctoral level.  The academic snobbery and hypocrisy is amazing.

[betterslac]

Great observation about the "brick and mortal" schools.  Could that be a slip?  I had to laugh when I saw the post because I am always screaming at my students about proofreading.  I should take my own advice.

Yesterday, I was attending a boring committee meeting and we started discussing doctoral programs.  I mentioned my interests and that fact that I am considering distance education.  Immediately, one of my colleagues chimed in with the response "I hope its not Nova."  Of course, I had to follow this up.  As I suspected, he knew nothing about any doctoral distance education programs.  He was just spouting off his opinions that were not based on any factual information.

I find it so bizarre that academia is so reluctant to accept distance education doctorates.  This is particularly true since the trend in all education is toward online courses and full online degrees.  We encourage it at the undergraduate and master's (in some cases) levels, but shun it at the doctoral level.  The academic snobbery and hypocrisy is amazing.

Warning: controversial views ahead.

It is not academic snobbery. Rather part of it is the perception (true or not) that such distance programs appeal to people who want to take the easiest possible route to a graduate degree: they want to get a ticket punched and do not really want to put forward the time and effort that it takes to get a degree from a residential program. Read the threads on this site where people post about wanting to get a quick graduate degree so they can apply for a promotion or raise.

Another and related part is the perception that those who pursue this route want the prestige and credentials that are associated with graduate degrees from traditional programs but do not want to accept the sacrifices that come from participating in such programs. Here the argument is that participants in distance programs want be able to work full time and have time with their families-- goods that those in traditional programs largely (though not completely) must give up.

I have some sympathy for these views. A rigorous graduate program takes a lot of time and effort.  The marketing for many distance programs seems to indicate that this would not be the case; it smacks a little too much of the entitlement attitude we find at the undergraduate level-- do the work when you want to, build a program around your schedule, and in the more egregious cases, get credit for lifetime experience.

A graduate program should be more than an exercise in ticket punching or credentialing. And even if a distance program does offer a rigorous academic program (which I am sure many do), an important part of any good program is what goes on outside of the classroom-- acculturation in an academic setting; attendance at seminars with experts who are visiting; use of very high quality libraries; face to face meetings with other graduate students who are pursuing similar interests, etc. A distance program cannot offer these.

[jonesey]

True, but a distance program means you don't have to quit your job, either.  Something that most people can't do, for reasons you mentioned above (bills, family, etc).

With all of the threads stating how terrible the job market is for a PhD, why would you want to quit your job, be unemployed for five + years, only to face a job market that won't hire you? 

If you've got a job, and getting the PhD will get you the promotion, why would you quit? 

For the vast majority of people who didn't know what they wanted to do the rest of their lives when they were, oh, 22, dropping everything to attend a brick-and-mortar school isn't possible.  Does this mean these people shouldn't continue their education?  Are we only going to hire twenty-something academics because they did it the "right" way? 

[zharkov]

A graduate program should be more than an exercise in ticket punching or credentialing. And even if a distance program does offer a rigorous academic program (which I am sure many do), an important part of any good program is what goes on outside of the classroom-- acculturation in an academic setting; attendance at seminars with experts who are visiting; use of very high quality libraries; face to face meetings with other graduate students who are pursuing similar interests, etc. A distance program cannot offer these.

IMHO, you are describing the best graduate programs.  I would tend to agree that few or no distance ed programs can't compare to the best graduate programs.  I'd also argue that many traditional grad programs are middlin', iffy, and do little to acculturate future scholars.  Someone once claimed -- and I'd tend to agree -- that a doctorate from Nova or Union was close to what one would get at a middle-ranked non-flagship state U.
 

[xenia]

One factor that may be in play here is brick-n-mortar distrust of distance learning, period.
This despite (because of?) the trend slipdisco mentions, towards online courses and full online degrees. The shunning at the doctoral level is an interesting point
.

The marketing for many distance programs ... smacks a little too much of the entitlement attitude we find at the undergraduate level-- do the work when you want to, build a program around your schedule, and in the more egregious cases, get credit for lifetime experience.

A graduate program should be more than an exercise in ticket punching or credentialing. And even if a distance program does offer a rigorous academic program (which I am sure many do), an important part of any good program is what goes on outside of the classroom-- acculturation in an academic setting; attendance at seminars with experts who are visiting; use of very high quality libraries; face to face meetings with other graduate students who are pursuing similar interests, etc. A distance program cannot offer these.

These seem like pretty representative statements indicating widely-held views, and I don't even disagree with these views. But I'm not sure these considerations are going to hold back the tides of change.

Though I am having a bit of trouble imagining how the hands-on aspect of professional apprenticeship can work at the graduate level, by distance. It kind of challenges one of the last vestiges of the guild form, the supervisor-mentor and supervisee-mentee relationship. This is a professional relationship relying for its efficacy on incorporating many features of a personal relationship. That could be harder to initiate and develop via distance.

But all that means is that, sooner or later, this isn't going to be what getting a graduate degree looks like. Maybe in another 10-15 years, today's Borg (the facebook- and IM-using, texting-on-the-toilet generation) will be ripe for delivering online supervision of distance doctoral students, without even thinking twice.

FWIW, at the institution I work at, it happens that the majority of distance learners are not young, entitled undergrads. The vast majority are adult, working professionals (LOTS of nursing, a fair number of IT and IT managers). I've seen some material that inclines me to think this is representative of distance students generally (the working adult part, not the nursing and IT part). When I've taught or assisted in teaching them, they've been for the most part a pleasure, taking responsibility for their education and experience as a matter of course.

[prephd]

(the facebook- and IM-using, texting-on-the-toilet generation)

Thanks for this; I'm cracking up! I was just having a discussion about TotT last night.

FWIW, at the institution I work at, it happens that the majority of distance learners are not young, entitled undergrads. The vast majority are adult, working professionals (LOTS of nursing, a fair number of IT and IT managers).

Pardon my ignorance, but how the hell do you do a nursing degree online? I want my nurse to have actual experience with actual humans.

[zharkov]

Pardon my ignorance, but how the hell do you do a nursing degree online? I want my nurse to have actual experience with actual humans.

The goal of the nursing profession is that new nurses have bachelor's degrees. Because of the nursing shortage, this has yet to be implemented in the 20+ years since it was proposed, although most supervisory positions and jobs in upper tier hospitals require a bachelor's.  The graduates of associate's degree programs, even though they pass the RN exams, are thus somewhat in a second tier status.

To address these associate's level RN's some schools run BS completion programs for nurses, and some of these programs are online.  There are also online master's programs for nurse, btw.  But in all cases, nurses in these online programs have had to do hands-on clinical work with "actual humans" in order to get the RN.

[xenia]

Pardon my ignorance, but how the hell do you do a nursing degree online? I want my nurse to have actual experience with actual humans.

I meant to indicate that many of the students who take my online course are nurses, not that I teach nursing.

What Zarkov said, too. Here in the very frozen north, nurses have a limited amount of time to upgrade their diplomas to baccalaureate degrees. There's a lot of activity around making this happen, and distance learning is a big part of that.

[slipdisco]

Wow!  I really started something.

Lots of interesting opinions.  Thanks!

I guess this debate will go on forever.  Or, at least until the distance education programs are viewed as being valid.

I realize and understand the perception of a person who gets a degree from a distance learning program.  I know that they are thought of as being lazy, unmotivated to do "actual" doctoral work, with a desire to get all of the privileges of the degree.  This could not be further from the truth in my case.  As I mentioned in my opening statement, I want a doctorate for personal and professional reasons.  If I were 25 years old with few obligations, I probably could attend a traditonal program.  As a 48 year man with many obligations, this is not an option.  I worked my a** off to get my tt position, and I will absolutely not give it up to get to go back to school.  I just wish that my decision was easier.  Although my school fully accepts distance education degrees, you know right-off-the-bat that they are not viewed as "real" degree.  It is frustrating.  I'm not looking for an easier, softer way.  I'm just looking for an avenue that will allow me to pursue the degree.  As I tell my students, "nothing is easy."  This decision certainly isn't.

Thank you everybody!
Slipdisco

[imawakenow]

I just want to be sure that I am not making a mistake by possibly enrolling in a program that is viewed as a sham by the traditonal academics...

I mention this because I know that many will say that if I'm going to attempt a move to a four-year school, I should only investigate traditional brick and mortal schools... 

As I mentioned in my opening statement, I want a doctorate for personal and professional reasons... 

Although my school fully accepts distance education degrees, you know right-off-the-bat that they are not viewed as "real" degree...

I'm just looking for an avenue that will allow me to pursue the degree... 

It seems like you already know the answer.

Besides, you aren't going to change anyone's mind about the value of a distance ed or online degree.

Remember, all academia is inherently hierarchical. Many (most?) Ivy League grads look down on other programs; many Big Ten grads look down on other programs; etc., etc.

Bottom line: You'll never be happy if you worry about what all the other academics think. If a distance or online degree helps you achieve your goals, then go for it. If not, then no one will think worse of you for not pursuing another degree.

[slipdisco]

Thanks, rusleeping.  I appreciate your response.

Slipdisco

[gourmand601]

I would just like to chime in here. I cannot speak for all institutions, traditional and nontraditional, but I can say that Walden University is a well-respected and high ranked institution. It has a Carnegie designation as being a Doctoral Research Intensive University since 2000 (Refer  www.waldenu.edu/c/About/About_221.htm ), which would yield Walden University being a Tier 2 research university, which is where Most universities stand. (Refer http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/classifications/sub.asp?key=748&subkey=13669&start=782 .) All of this in accordance to the American Psychological Society’s distinction for 5 Research Tiers (Refer http://librarians.aps.org/tier2004.html . )

Walden has matched many top ranked traditional universities in various areas of research. The university sponsors an Academic Research Symposium each year, 2 Peer conferences, and numerous academic residencies throughout the academic year.

Things to note:  All Walden dissertations are published in the Proquest UMI Database, Walden has an alumni magazine that showcases the great things the university’s alumni are doing out in the real and academic worlds (Ref: http://alumnimag.waldenu.edu/ ), hosts four peer reviewed journals: Journal of Social Change (Ref: http://www.journalofsocialchange.org/e/JournalHome.htm ), Journal of Social, Behavorial, and Health Sciences(www.jsbhs.org/), International Journal of Applied Management and Technology (www.ijamt.org/IJAMT/IJAMT_home.htm), and the Journal of Educational Practice for Social Change (jepsc.org/). The university also has chapters in the following organizations: Education: Phi Delta Kappa; Psychology: Psi Chi National Honor Society, Management: Sigma Iota Epsilon National Honorary and Professional Management Fraternity. Commencement is traditional and is a must see http://streaming.waldenu.edu/Commencement_Summer07.wmv .

And final.... If ANY of you have insecurities about attending Walden University or ANY institution (traditional or non)... don't go! Why waste your time and money if you’re not going to make it work for you?
I have earned degrees from AACSB and ACBSP accredited business schools... and did extremely well on the GMAT.... I could have gone anywhere... especially back to my alma mater for free. But I guarantee you that my level of writing and research would not have been as good as it is at Walden. Walden's dissertations are published in UMI... my alma mater's isn't. My publications have my name on them… not my doctoral advisor’s as it would have been at a traditional university.

I believe in Walden's mission and its product. It's been growing strong for nearly 40 years and has never been denied accreditation!

I have already been offered an associate professorship at a private college, been published in peer reviewed journals, have 8 articles in peer review now, am an academic reader for a peer reviewed journal in the social sciences, and am a candidate for a financial honorarium at Walden University for my research. .... and it's because of my work.. not the school name or brand.

Lets not let disgruntled hearts and ignorance interfere with our desires to earn an advanced degree.. check it out for yourself... the information is there!