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[jonesey]

I don't agree that the students couldn't get in any place else.  Many of the students at our local UofP are very competent working older adults.  These schools survive because all of the course requirements are offered in the evening and Saturdays, so the students can get their entire degree in night school and on weekends.  That is the deciding factor for a lot of people who are working full time.  When academic colleges set up complete night programs, they successfully recruit these same students.     

You're certainly right that many non-trad students could get in somewhere else; some of the non-trads are the best of students.  I'm telling no one here (other than the odd SLAC prof) anything they likely haven't already observed. 

But that does not change the fact that every single MEd or MBA student in the world who could get in "somewhere else" has shown monumentally poor judgment in pursuing these expensive for-profit degrees.  There are tons of fine schools offering online, eve and satellite graduate degrees for less.  If a job candidate has good enough grades to get into an online, eve or weekend program at a major--or even prestigious--university and they did not, I know that their research skills and wisdom are abysmal.  The fact speaks for itself.

You're underestimating the convienience factor.  These schools meet 1 night a week, for about four hours a night, and you can finish an MBA in about 18 months.  Plus, many of these people work for companies that are paying 100% of the tuition.  It's easy to drive to, say, UoP one night a week (easy parking, no need to trek across an entire university), sit in a classroom with ten other people, and knock out an MBA.  It's not so easy to drive for an hour, after work, trying to be in class by 6pm, four nights a week, not be able to get parking, etc, etc. 

Not all MBAs are cheaper.  Where I'm at, University of Miami's MBA (evening program) runs $60,000. 

[georgia_guy]

Master's level tuition at my University is under $2k per semester for full-time in-state.

Our MBA courses can be taken one night per week. Students can finish in 12-18 months, depending on whether they meet all pre-requisites.

In spite of this, we have a local UoP and they have MBA students.

I agree with the assessment that it is really poor judgement that guides these students, or inability to meet our relatively modest GMAT score requirements.

[neocon]

I don't agree that the students couldn't get in any place else.  Many of the students at our local UofP are very competent working older adults.  These schools survive because all of the course requirements are offered in the evening and Saturdays, so the students can get their entire degree in night school and on weekends.  That is the deciding factor for a lot of people who are working full time.  When academic colleges set up complete night programs, they successfully recruit these same students.     

You're certainly right that many non-trad students could get in somewhere else; some of the non-trads are the best of students.  I'm telling no one here (other than the odd SLAC prof) anything they likely haven't already observed. 

But that does not change the fact that every single MEd or MBA student in the world who could get in "somewhere else" has shown monumentally poor judgment in pursuing these expensive for-profit degrees.  There are tons of fine schools offering online, eve and satellite graduate degrees for less.  If a job candidate has good enough grades to get into an online, eve or weekend program at a major--or even prestigious--university and they did not, I know that their research skills and wisdom are abysmal.  The fact speaks for itself.

You're underestimating the convienience factor.  These schools meet 1 night a week, for about four hours a night, and you can finish an MBA in about 18 months.  Plus, many of these people work for companies that are paying 100% of the tuition.  It's easy to drive to, say, UoP one night a week (easy parking, no need to trek across an entire university), sit in a classroom with ten other people, and knock out an MBA.  It's not so easy to drive for an hour, after work, trying to be in class by 6pm, four nights a week, not be able to get parking, etc, etc. 

Not all MBAs are cheaper.  Where I'm at, University of Miami's MBA (evening program) runs $60,000. 

There is nothing more convenient than getting an MBA while sitting in your underwear and logging onto the computer.  There are about 100 good to outstanding schools in the U.S. that offer MBAs either 100% online or online with minimal residencies.  These include schools like Duke, Arizona State, Florida, UMass, Auburn, Nebraska, Oklahoma State, Mississippi State, Western Kentucky, Colorado State, Wyoming, Florida State, several schools within Georgia and Texas, Penn State, (I could go on and on).  Several of these schools are less than UoP, Nebraska is about half the price!   

There is no excuse for a good student pursuing a degree from UoP.   

[larryc]

My impression is that UP combines easy admission, convenient course delivery, easy credit, and very low standards for course completion. I may be wrong however.

[jonesey]

My impression is that UP combines easy admission, convenient course delivery, easy credit, and very low standards for course completion. I may be wrong however.

You're not.

Remember, no GMAT/GRE for classes at UoP.  No Business undergrad required (heck, no Business classes at all). 

Georgia_Guy, you mentioned pre-reqs that have to be met.  UoP doesn't have any.  Neocon, same to you:  Yes, Duke has one (the Fuqua School of Business is about $85,000 for their online program, BTW), so does Penn (It's much more than UoP also).  Both of those programs are very hard to get into. 

The most common reasons I hear from students about attending a for-profit school are "individual attention" and "small class size."  These students don't attend online (heck, many don't have computers), would absolutely quit if faced with a classroom of 300 students, and need constant, never-ending encouragement from professors and university staff to "hang in there!" so that they don't quit.

Trust me.  I know all about for-profit schools....

[minor_t]

My impression is that UP combines easy admission, convenient course delivery, easy credit, and very low standards for course completion. I may be wrong however.

In other words, they give the people what they want.  And UoP and the other proprietaries just keep on growing.

[larryc]

What I meant to emphasize (and did not) was the low standards for course completion as an essential part of their success. They seem to strip each class down to the barest minimum that the accreditors will accept, then look the other way if local practice falls short even of that lowered standard. I read somewhere that UP classes are scheduled for the bare minimum of contact hours, then half these hours are assigned to student study groups without a professor even present. Is that correct?

[mdwlark]

I'm not defending the for-profits, just trying to see it from the students' point of view.

I don't know that it is bad judgment that makes good nontraditional students go to the for-profits.  The for-profits say "we are accredited by the National Council on #$%^&."  To someone who isn't a part of the academic world and has been away from any education for a decade, that sounds impressive.  It is licensed by their state and accredited by some national what-ever.   It must be OK.  There aren't any counter-ads on T.V. telling them that it is a bad idea.  They fall for the slick advertising, promises and glowing self-reports (you know, "real-world professionals"). 

Not every place has a major university every few blocks like NYC.  Not everyplace has a local academic college that has established night programs.  In much of the rest of the country, the students think their choices, as they see it, are the local community college, the local university that is hard to get into and has parking nightmares, or one of the local for-profits. The community college probably doesn't offer bachelor's degrees and certainly doesn't have master's degrees.  The for-profit has prettier, newer buildings than the local university, marble floors, wood paneling and potted plants. 

Convenient parking is a huge factor for someone who has to squeeze education into a busy full-time work schedule.  No entrance exams?  The students don't think, "that is because I'm too dumb to pass an entrance exam" or "what a low-brow operation."  They think, "that is because this school is appealing to proven, upwardly mobile professionals like myself."  That is one more huge obstacle they don't have to jump over.  I agree what we see as low standards are of big concern to academia, but the students see it as the school adapting to, facilitating and accommodating their working situation.   

The community colleges have some of the same pressures from students who aren't ready for higher education and don't understand what studying at a college level would entail.  I'm finding it to be a real dilemma what to do with my poorly prepared community college students.  (The for-profits have it figured out.  They just pass them.  I'm faced with failing a sizable group of students this semester.) 

I feel really sorry for students who discover that their expensive, time-consuming degree isn't respected as a credential in their chosen field.  One of the for-profits here went out of business.  The students arrived one morning to a locked door. It left a lot of students with unfinished degrees and no way to transfer credits even if the academic universities and colleges would have accepted them.  On the other hand, there are professions or certain businesses that recognize the degrees, like the teachers getting recertification.  I have heard of people getting placed in nursing with for-profit degrees.     

[scarletbegonia]

UoP and the like are not diploma mills, but they are diploma factories, and their standards and oversight over faculty are atrocious--how are you going to have legit quality control over faculty living 3,000 miles from "campus" whom you're paying less than $1,000 per class?  

Our local UP offered me $2K to teach a course that met once a week. The course was only 5 weeks long. I'm not sure what I would have been able to teach in 5 weeks, but I can understand the appeal to both the students and the faculty (at least the adjuncts). That's a heck of a lot more money than any other adjunct job in this area...

[neocon]

My impression is that UP combines easy admission, convenient course delivery, easy credit, and very low standards for course completion. I may be wrong however.

You're not.

Remember, no GMAT/GRE for classes at UoP.  No Business undergrad required (heck, no Business classes at all). 

Georgia_Guy, you mentioned pre-reqs that have to be met.  UoP doesn't have any.  Neocon, same to you:  Yes, Duke has one (the Fuqua School of Business is about $85,000 for their online program, BTW), so does Penn (It's much more than UoP also).  Both of those programs are very hard to get into. 

The most common reasons I hear from students about attending a for-profit school are "individual attention" and "small class size."  These students don't attend online (heck, many don't have computers), would absolutely quit if faced with a classroom of 300 students, and need constant, never-ending encouragement from professors and university staff to "hang in there!" so that they don't quit.

Trust me.  I know all about for-profit schools....

My guess is you teach on the side at one for a few extra bucks.  Am I right?

[mdwlark]

Which brings up another question, if I give in to my economic woes and decide to teach at a for-profit for a semester or two (it hasn't happened yet, but they called me) should I put it on my C.V.?   

[neocon]

I don't know that it is bad judgment that makes good nontraditional students go to the for-profits.  The for-profits say "we are accredited by the National Council on #$%^&."  To someone who isn't a part of the academic world and has been away from any education for a decade, that sounds impressive.  It is licensed by their state and accredited by some national what-ever.   It must be OK.  There aren't any counter-ads on T.V. telling them that it is a bad idea.  They fall for the slick advertising, promises and glowing self-reports (you know, "real-world professionals").

I think that is the very definition of "bad judgment". 

I feel really sorry for students who discover that their expensive, time-consuming degree isn't respected as a credential in their chosen field.

As do I, but in the same way that I feel sorry for those who loaded up on way more home than they needed, financed it with a zero equity loan, and are now being foreclosed upon due to their poor foresight.

On the other hand, there are professions or certain businesses that recognize the degrees, like the teachers getting recertification.  I have heard of people getting placed in nursing with for-profit degrees.     

There are even some academics at smaller institutions--such as sectarian non-S LACs or CCs--with PhDs and EdDs from Walden, UoP, Capella, etc.  But of course, I suppose they have otherwise solid publishing records or were already established at their institution with a B&M masters and just got the degree to satisfy the requirement of a "regionally accredited doctorate" at their institution.  I'm sure it works for some.

[neocon]

UoP and the like are not diploma mills, but they are diploma factories, and their standards and oversight over faculty are atrocious--how are you going to have legit quality control over faculty living 3,000 miles from "campus" whom you're paying less than $1,000 per class?  

Our local UP offered me $2K to teach a course that met once a week. The course was only 5 weeks long. I'm not sure what I would have been able to teach in 5 weeks, but I can understand the appeal to both the students and the faculty (at least the adjuncts). That's a heck of a lot more money than any other adjunct job in this area...

They offer less than that for online; that's what my example referred to.  I think up until recently, they were paying something like $900 for a 3 cr hr online course.

[jonesey]

My guess is you teach on the side at one for a few extra bucks.  Am I right?

Something like that, although not at UoP...

Keep in mind, at many companies, HR personnel don't know d!ck about colleges and universities.  Having a BA (or MBA) is a "check the box" kind of thing.  If your MBA was from Harvard, or State U, or UoP, it doesn't really matter.  It's just something on your resume for that job interview.

If a BA is the new high school diploma, a masters is the new BA.  You get an MBA because, if you don't, you'll be the only applicant without one, not necessarily because you learned a whole lot.

There are a handfull of "good" MBA programs.  Programs where the school's name will get you a solid interview.  After that, it doesn't really matter if you went to Georgia Tech, U of Miami, or your local State U; it's just another degree. 
 

[neocon]

My guess is you teach on the side at one for a few extra bucks.  Am I right?

Something like that, although not at UoP...

Keep in mind, at many companies, HR personnel don't know d!ck about colleges and universities.  Having a BA (or MBA) is a "check the box" kind of thing.  If your MBA was from Harvard, or State U, or UoP, it doesn't really matter.  It's just something on your resume for that job interview.

If a BA is the new high school diploma, a masters is the new BA.  You get an MBA because, if you don't, you'll be the only applicant without one, not necessarily because you learned a whole lot.

There are a handfull of "good" MBA programs.  Programs where the school's name will get you a solid interview.  After that, it doesn't really matter if you went to Georgia Tech, U of Miami, or your local State U; it's just another degree. 
 

It's not a big deal to teach a class or two for a for-profit.  I think a lot of very legit profs do so.  Sometimes, perhaps, if only to get a feel for different pedagogical technologies.  I just signed a contract to teach an online class for the "professional and continuing ed dept" of a tiny Midwestern LAC (not a for-profit, but not much higher up the educational ladder) and one of the fellows who's also moonlighting for them teaches at Columbia!

I agree with your assessment of MBA programs (though GTech's MBA certainly has some panache among tech-oriented corps), in that outside the top 15 or 20 programs, it really doesn't mean much.  But I still think virtually any corp interested in an MBA-level candidate knows the yawning gulf between an MBA from UoP and an MBA from State U.