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[historian]

I was beginning to think Maps was Clouds, but his or her (note careful gender neutrality) writing style is more elegant on the sentence level than Clouds' was.

I'd have thought Pyshnov, except Maps' declarations of rampant criminality among professors don't single out women or communists.

Perhaps I'm the person who broke the West Virginia University story. Degrees when the governor says so.

My surprise was that anyone was surprised. Its West Virginia for crying out loud!

[dr_evil]

I heard there was ice cream to be had over here.  Got any Cherry Garcia?

I cannot remember back to what my original meanings were. You can try to work off of what you take it to mean, but I cannot help you beyond that.

You can't remember what you meant when you wrote something?  Then how can we ever hope to figure it out?

I think I need a strong drink with that ice cream.

[infopri]

I'm particularly bothered when I have to explain why a school didn't hire me for a full-time position as if the decision reflects poorly on something I did or my lack of qualifications.  [...]

Why am I blamed for the discriminatory decisionmaking process of others?

To whom do you have to explain?  Who is blaming you?  If you are referring to the SCs at subsequent interviews, how do they know where or how many times you've interviewed?

I cannot remember back to what my original meanings were. You can try to work off of what you take it to mean, but I cannot help you beyond that.

I think I may know why you weren't hired.  And it wasn't your age.

[copesan]

I just picked up this thread.
After 5 years on the job market I had to finally conclude that as a middle-aged female I was considered too old to hire.  I don't even know if I am competitive or not. No one will let me compete because no one will give me an interview or a job talk opportunity.  I have a doctorate from an ivy league university, great recommendations, book at press, years of teaching experience, and administrative experience.  I feel like I am at an intersection of one-way streets all heading in--one street is age, one is gender, and one is that my former career teaching in private secondary school.  I feel like a tennis player that qualified for a grand slam tournament, but was physcially restrained from playing the match, and then every one turned to me and said, "since you lost the match you must not be a very good tennis player!"

[mdwlark]

I just picked up this thread.
After 5 years on the job market I had to finally conclude that as a middle-aged female I was considered too old to hire.  I don't even know if I am competitive or not. No one will let me compete because no one will give me an interview or a job talk opportunity.  I have a doctorate from an ivy league university, great recommendations, book at press, years of teaching experience, and administrative experience.  I feel like I am at an intersection of one-way streets all heading in--one street is age, one is gender, and one is that my former career teaching in private secondary school.  I feel like a tennis player that qualified for a grand slam tournament, but was physcially restrained from playing the match, and then every one turned to me and said, "since you lost the match you must not be a very good tennis player!"

I can really relate to this, copesan, especially the part where the roads collide.  I decided age and gender are two things I can't change, but my cover letter is something I can change.   I have rewritten the boilerplate letter several times and I ran it by a trusted colleague.  I had one disastrous cover letter that got no interviews.  I rewrote one paragraph and got several phone or conference interviews with the next batch of applications.  I have tweaked it several times since.  I also rewrite the first two paragraphs slightly to fit each job application.   I sometimes rearrange the other paragraphs or remove sentences that don't fit the particular job.   

I also dropped the oldest job and the date of my bachelors and masters degrees off my CV, because they are spread out and highlighted my age.   That seemed to help. 

Of course age and gender discrimination are often present, and age discrimination is gendered, because men are allowed to get older than women before it turns negative.   But it is more helpful to re-examine your cover letter as if age and gender are not the problem and something else is.  Are you telling the departments how you fit their needs, rather than just telling about yourself?  (one of my mistakes.)   Are you either overselling or underselling yourself?  (another of my mistakes.)  Are you selling yourself in the best light?  Sometimes just the wording of one sentence will have the wrong tone.   If you are up against 100 applicants or more, do you say something that makes you stand out as meeting the department's needs over the other applicants? 

I also did a practice interview, and I review how each one goes, with an eye on improving my next performance.  I may eventually decide to throw in the towel, but I'm still trying. 

[copesan]

I really appreciate your remarks, mdwiark.  And that you are still in there swinging.  I have to admit that the constant discouragement just wore me out. Perhaps if I had even gotten some near misses, some "we really liked you but you didn't fit our needs" type responses, I would feel differently than going up again a thick blanket of silence and having enough rejections to paper a small lav.  Your questions and suggestions are excellent; though I did repeatedly tweak my job letter, I will continue to do so and keep your suggestions in mind.
I am curious though about taking the dates of my BA off the c.v.  Won't they just assume that I am trying to hide something?

[mdwlark]

I am curious though about taking the dates of my BA off the c.v.  Won't they just assume that I am trying to hide something?

If you are not getting any interviews, it can't make things any worse.  All I know is that the number of positive responses increased when I dropped the dates.  I just listed all three degrees without dates and then listed the date that my dissertation was finished and published.  If employers will promise to stop discriminating, and will honor it, I'll put the dates back.  But until that day, I'll leave them off.  The time intervals between my degrees are 5 to 10 years apart, so I really look old if I include them.  Oh yeah, I forgot, I am old. This year I'm getting a few positive reactions.   I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  I have times that I get really discouraged.  It could be I'm just running myself ragged by landing interviews, and they are discriminating by age when they get a good look at me, but I'm hoping I can sell myself well enough to get a job.

[zharkov]

I just picked up this thread.
After 5 years on the job market I had to finally conclude that as a middle-aged female I was considered too old to hire.  I don't even know if I am competitive or not. No one will let me compete because no one will give me an interview or a job talk opportunity.  I have a doctorate from an ivy league university, great recommendations, book at press, years of teaching experience, and administrative experience.  I feel like I am at an intersection of one-way streets all heading in--one street is age, one is gender, and one is that my former career teaching in private secondary school.  I feel like a tennis player that qualified for a grand slam tournament, but was physcially restrained from playing the match, and then every one turned to me and said, "since you lost the match you must not be a very good tennis player!"

While some degree of age discrimination does exist, you also need to consider some other factors.

First, if you are in a humanities field -- like English or History -- then you need to consider that there is a huge oversupply of applicants.  If 200 people apply for a single job opening, then only the most distinctive candidates make the short list.  Many highly qualified people do not, and sadly, will not get jobs in fields with this level of oversupply.

Second, there is a certain perception -- call it a bias if you want -- that certain "life stories" make sense.  Employers have a hard time accepting candidates with "different" stories.  So, for example, if you got your ivy PhD at age 30, spent the next 20 years teaching at St. Pauls or Groton, published one book during that time, then employers will slot you as "high school teacher who wants a mid-life career change."   I am somewhat in the same boat, worked in industry for 20+ years, then moved to academia, but the story makes sense to teaching focused schools:  "manager makes career change to teach business students."

Third, mobility, or rather the lack of it,  is something that hurts us older candidates.  If you are limited to a restricted geographic area b/c of spouse's job or whatnot, then it becomes much harder.




 

 

[mountain_ivy]

Our provost refused to shortlist an older, white, female candidate, based solely on age.  Provost wasn't even subtle about it.

So what did he/she say about their decision?

She said the candidate was too old. 

[mdwlark]

Our provost refused to shortlist an older, white, female candidate, based solely on age.  Provost wasn't even subtle about it.

So what did he/she say about their decision?

She said the candidate was too old. 

That applicant may have been me!   Or copesan!   How old is the provost? 

[mountain_ivy]

Old enough to know better...and old enough to be discriminated against herself.        Also, she's an idiot.