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Author Topic: Needing to vent.......  (Read 6534 times)
kaysixteen
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2007, 01:37:03 PM »

I have never been to Kansas, sir, but I strongly suspect the people there have more class and humility than does the average professor at the faculty club at your doubtless fifth rate British university.  Your university cannot, of course, be very good, sullied as it is with the presence of so many Yankee professors... unless, of course, there were were more British ones there, at which case it would not even be fifth rate.  There is no question that the American higher ed system is the class of the world, and that especially American academic PhDs are vastly superior to the system used in Britain.
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sandgrounder
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2007, 03:43:51 PM »

secretweapon's right. Several of my university's more disastrous hires we later discovered had a reputation in the US for being truly unpleasant individuals that someone really should have picked up on earlier. Luckily the worst one only stayed a year...There are two other problems: we sometimes forget to translate the usual effusive US references into British English and are wrongly overimpressed, and we have appointed a couple of people, who trained to and wanted to teach at LACs. Unsurprisingly they hate being in a big research-driven university being expected to churn out publications. Predictably they are also a poor fit on the teaching side - our students loathe being treated, as they put it, like schoolchildren. My UK PhD trained me to be a research academic, their US PhDs trained them to be college teachers. I'd be a liability at a LAC; they're a liability for us. We have far fewer expectation gaps with US appointments who have come from the big US research universities - that seems to work better. They tend to have chosen the UK for research-related reasons, they already have contacts here etc etc. And on the whole they don't have a superiority complex and are constructive colleagues. The ones who do, tend to be much weaker academics, and as the OP pointed out they can be pure poison.
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drspouse
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2007, 05:32:51 AM »

We have several US-citizen academics in our department (including me, though as only my postdoc, and none of my childhood, was spent in the US I don't really count - I don't have the accent!) and none of them have been at all "we do it like that" or awkward in any way. But they are largely research active and came to us for just that reason. 

We do have a couple of non-UK poor fits who are individuals with no desire to work with anyone else, which is probably a good thing though is also a bad thing - one is "former colonial" and one is "former Eastern Block" and they are both the kind of lecturer who only quotes themselves, and who doesn't see the point of most of our admin tasks - some of which, to be fair, have no point, but some of which if they won't do them, someone else has to do them. In these cases their difficulty integrating is definitely partly because they don't think our system is any good, but it is also because of their laziness individuality and unwillingness to cooperate. If they had their own personal research institution that would be fine, but they don't.  We are just thankful neither of them really has any allies.

We also have some UK poor fits but they mostly muddle along and moan about admin, while not getting much research done, rather than completely refusing to do any.
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qrypt
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2007, 06:19:00 AM »


We also have some UK poor fits but they mostly muddle along and moan about admin, while not getting much research done, rather than completely refusing to do any.

This is the crucial point - some Brits are perfectly capable of moaning and failing to "cooperate." 
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scotia
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2007, 10:01:40 AM »


We also have some UK poor fits but they mostly muddle along and moan about admin, while not getting much research done, rather than completely refusing to do any.

This is the crucial point - some Brits are perfectly capable of moaning and failing to "cooperate." 


Yup - this morning I spent my office hour trying to help sort out a problem resutling from a task that one of my delightful (British) colleagues had promised to do and then not done. It did not come as a surprise to those of us who know him. As a consequence an unfortunate student risked losing a potential place on a postgraduate course. She left with a smile on her face but it took three of us (a multi-national team) nearly an hour to sort out the mess.
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bobavakian
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2007, 03:05:16 PM »

There is no question that the American higher ed system is the class of the world, and that especially American academic PhDs are vastly superior to the system used in Britain.

[Edited for personal attacks and name-calling. - moderator] Here are just some of your past posts suggesting that the American higher ed system might not actually be "the class of the world":

"My program is a notorious diploma mill, one that has actually had its ALA accreditation pulled within the last year."

..."professors, with one exception, really were utterly uninterested in assisting students with the job search, and did not seem to care whether they got work at all."

..."the situation was so bad that at this time there was a library school professor there who had a policy whereby she would agree to write references for ten students/ alumni at a time, and keep a waiting list for others.  Whenever one of the lucky ten got work, she'd pull another name off of the list."

"...all these things make sense for a program that was for all intents and purposes a diploma mill, a cash cow for the university"

"Remember, there are at least 4k 'colleges and universities' in the USA, and every year 1-3 of them do go under, just as new ones, however legit, are founded.  Sadly, there are more than a few *accredited* institutions of higher learning in this country whose education/ diplomas are not/ no longer worth the paper they are printed on, and are simply taking the money of whatever (often unqualified) students that they can attract.  Such is one of the few downsides of the freedom of the US higher ed system."

"The notion that 99.99% of published articles in 'top-tier' fora are good is not true, certainly not for all fields.  I have read numerous articles in such journals in my own academic discipline over the years, many of which contribute exactly nothing to 'scholarship' save being on their authors' CVs."

[This is your question (LOL!):] "What exactly is 'theory' in history, and how does/do theor(ies) influence the writing thereof?"

"The journal an article appears in is reliable evidence of either how well the article conforms to the standards of the profession now and/or the prestige of the author.  Appearing in MegaHistoryJournal is not, however, any indicator that the piece is actually good."

"The student, at the end of the semester, using the syllabus, calculated his mark should be 92.5%, an A- at the school, but when he saw his report card listing a C, he emailed the teacher to complain.  The teacher's response was that he had decided that, after three out of the four required tests, that the class grade average was too high, so he changed the way he was going to grade the last test without telling the class, resulting in the student's getting an 84% instead.  The student then noted that 84% was still a straight B, not a straight C.  The teacher then said that when he calculated this student's mark and found it to be 84%=B, he felt that the student really had not actually done B work, and in the teacher's opinion had done more like C work, so he gave the fellow a C anyhow, despite the math.  The student then complained to the Uni's ombudsman, who sided with the teacher on academic freedom concerns."

"In some cases, the administrators impose a lack of discipline so stunning that it is dangerous for the teacher to be in the classroom, and no substantive education is even possible."

"Exactly what does this say about Ivy League degrees and grading, especially from the era prior to say the 1970s?  The late great Ray Kroc was once asked by a reporter if it were really true, as he had publicly claimed, that he would refuse to hire a Harvard man to work in his restaurants, even as a manager?  He said he had no choice-- he could not hire the Harvard man as the Harvard man would consider it beneath his dignity to clean the toilets, and Kroc wanted bathroom cleanliness to be a hallmark of what McDonald's would offer.  What are we dealing with here-- just a bunch of spoiled rich kids whose families got them there, in order to see to it that the kid would then have the benefit of an Ivy league degree, irrespective of their competence?"

"...at many old-time SLACs and compass points, till very recently, publishing was professor-optional, more or less. "

"we are simply sending a higher percentage of kids in each annual cohort to college every year.  The percentage is almost double what it was thirty years ago, and vastly greater than it was before the Boomers hit college, let alone before WWII.  Of course, therefore, student performance will suffer, especially when there are so many colleges that were established to handle the new numbers, but find only so many 'good' students to go around, and have to more or less settle for whatever they can find."

Shall I go on?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 10:54:36 PM by moderator » Logged
daniel_von_flanagan
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2007, 07:24:28 PM »

And then there is the other side of your story.  My department (a 5*) consists of about 1/3 non-British Ph.ds (US, Australia, New Zealand).  When any of us offer other possible ways of dealing with a problem/issue/practice etc, our British colleagues wait for us to finish speaking and then, without skipping a beat, continue discussing the issue from where they had left off, as if we had never said anything!!
I was the Yank in a department like this.  Then I left.  Then the department was shut down.  I'm not claiming causality, mind you. - DvF
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kaysixteen
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2007, 10:32:34 PM »

What ho, old chum, you did do a decent, though not really all that competent, job of collecting a few outtakes of my posts here over the last two years or so, and tossing them together in attempt to, what, make me look inconsistent?  You will have to try harder than that.  I am indeed a graduate of the best college in the world, and I actually have a real PhD and an MLS too.  The fact that my library program was subpar does not change the fact that I have the thing.  In any case, you are the gent who came here, out of the blue, to whine about the idiotic Americans his dumb colleagues had foisted upon his department.  And you have yet to answer the single question of why they were hired, if they were so incompetent.  Surely British and Commonwealth candidates applied for these positions as well?  You and I both know the answer, but your provincial mindset and boorish mother-country snobbery prevents you from acknowledging it.
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euro_ir_nerd
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2007, 09:13:30 AM »

This thread has gone to the troll. I suggest that it be left in peace.
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kaysixteen
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2007, 11:36:32 AM »

I got it-- I will move to England and take your job.  It shouldn't be very difficult, seeing as those in the know realize Americans are better than the locals.  If only they spoke American there...
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bobavakian
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2007, 12:08:27 PM »

I got it-- I will move to England and take your job.  It shouldn't be very difficult, seeing as those in the know realize Americans are better than the locals.  If only they spoke American there...

I doubt it.

Strange, I always thought Christianity was about humility and a lack of pride. Given your repeated and loud claims to be a Christian in numerous (numerous!) messages on this board, I'm wondering how you square that with your numerous (numerous!) claims to have graduated from an "elite" (pay big bucks?) "best college in the world" (who says and when?).

And how your "Christianity" (of the white bread Republican sort) squares with your clear contempt and hatred of anything non-American?

Just asking.......








« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 10:57:24 PM by moderator » Logged
expatinuk
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2007, 12:19:30 PM »

I guess I will feed the troll...

oh... never mind... he's not worth the effort...
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goldenapple
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2007, 12:30:12 PM »

The problem with conflicts of this kind is that both sides end up focusing on nationality and national culture as the one and only source of all problems and conflicts. Sometimes that's the problem. Sometimes the problem is that Prof. W (British) is a jerk, Prof. X (Yank) is lazy, and Profs. Y and Z (Brit and Yank respectively) like to hear themselves talk and don't have a clue. 

When I was living in France, I heard Americans complain about the bus arriving late because "That's how things are in France!" Now I'm here in the U.S., and the city buses in my town run late, too. Correlation does not equal causality.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you're in a department full of newly-hired jerks, who also happen to be Yanks!
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observer3
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2007, 01:45:51 PM »

So here's a new view to protest the nationalist spiraling-out-of-control that has gone before.

I'm an American who moved to the UK partly b/c my field was going in a better direction in the UK, with more interesting research than the really boring crap being mass-produced for tenure purposes on the US side. But over the past few years I have been dismayed to watch an RAE-induced prioritization of US journals (by Brits!) in ranking and the signal this sends to some a**holish Americans in my field, making them think they have legitimacy to therefore say the obnoxious things mentioned above.

At least in my field, British academics have not recognized their strengths enough to fight against these journal rankings etc. I'm not sure why not. But I would agree with the OP that Americanization should be stopped. Maybe the other 2/3 of your department need to get more serious about trying to do so? My guess is that not all of the Americans in the department think the same about everything; it would be worth doing some digging and forming alliances to start changing the ability of the jerks to get their way.
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anon4now
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 07:18:20 AM »

My situation may provide some consolation to the OP.  I'm in a US department with a newly hired Brit who is doing precisely the same things (rather, the mirror image of those things)---trying to get us to double mark (hah), trying to have oversight and to change the curriculum to "modules" (hah), and so on. The real interest here is the way people on boths sides cling to thier systems as if to a lifeline, trying to transplant those systems in new/unfriendly soil everywhere they go, as if their old place's systems were essential to their survival or identity someow...  But since our Brit is the only one in this dept, she comes off looking crazy, whiny, imperious, demanding, insanely trying to impose pointless bureaucracy on our fairly flexible systems, unable to adapt to a new environment, etc.  Being in a new institutional culture brings out the worst in some people, I think---we are sorry we hired her (especially as a senior prof with tenure at such a huge salary she will probably stay!). 

Your problem with the Yanks is much worse than ours with her, however, in this respect: there are too many of them for you to marginalize, but there's only one of her (loud as she is), and we have given up trying to take her ideas seriously, so strident and inappropriate are they for the new context.  It's too late for you, but not for us: though they keep knocking at the door, god knows why, we're definitely not going to hire any more Brits. Ever.   Good luck getting rid of the Yanks now that the dollar is so bad...

It's really a shame it has to be this way, since I think each system has selected virtues from which the other could benefit...
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