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[zowie]

I have a colleague who was rejected twice from hu's alma mater (Georgetown University) and was told the second time NOT to apply again.  Is this standard?

[nardo]

Yep.

[captain_obvious]

In my field, it is absolutely standard for departments not to accept their own undergrads into their grad programs.  At my alma mater, for example, you could easily major in biology and then apply to the med or law schools, but you'd never get in if you tried for a PhD in biology.  The worry is that you won't develop intellectual diversity in your training if you do it all in one place.

When I was applying to schools, my undergrad adviser basically said to me, "If you're absolutely dying to come here, I will get you in, but you really should go somewhere else."  It was very tempting--my alma mater has one of the best programs in my field in the country--but in the end I went elsewhere.

[minorleaguer]

Two examples.  Last year I knew an undergrad at my institution who applied to my department.  Hu took a graduate level research seminar with the chair of the department, did well in the course, and still didn't get in. 

Another example comes from someone outside of my department who was accepted by offered no funding from hus current school.  In a form letter, the school told him that they would accept him, but could not pay for hus "expenses" in bringing him to the school.  This was of course amusing because hu went to the building of the graduate program every day and lived one block from campus. 

The point here is that in grad school applications there are no certainties.  The number of people in my cohort that have told me that they were rejected by their "safety" schools is very amusing to me.  There is no such thing as a safety school in graduate applications and until you get an offer in writing, you shouldn't believe ANYONE when they tell you that you are in . . . and so on and so forth 

[contemporary_]

Yes, this is the case, but there are exceptions.

If one gets back in, there's a generally a good reason -- argued either by the applicant or the potential advisor.

[nardo]

. . . In a form letter, the school told him that they would accept him, but could not pay for hus "expenses" in bringing him to the school.  This was of course amusing because hu went to the building of the graduate program every day and lived one block from campus. 

To gender or not to gender . . . get your hummis in order if you chuse to use the huse.

[minorleaguer]

. . . In a form letter, the school told him that they would accept him, but could not pay for hus "expenses" in bringing him to the school.  This was of course amusing because hu went to the building of the graduate program every day and lived one block from campus. 

To gender or not to gender . . . get your hummis in order if you chuse to use the huse.

Whoops.  I outed him.  Or hu.  Whatever.

[shamu]

I have a colleague who was rejected twice from hu's alma mater (Georgetown University) and was told the second time NOT to apply again.  Is this standard?

I know a lot of people who went on to do various combinations of degrees (bachelor's, master's, PhD) at the same institutions, irrespective of the school. A few programs may be reluctant to allow this, but for the most part, if one continues one's studies in a way that s/he can grow and eventually become independent, getting accepted to the same place is not uncommon (even at good schools). If there are no growth opportunities, that may be an issue.

As for a direct answer to your question, it is not unusual to get a rejection. In a way, the committee are doing a favor to the prospective student by telling her/him not to apply again. I doubt that the only reason would be holding a degree from there. Hopefully, your friend will have other options.

What IS less common is getting a tenure-track job in the same department one just graduated from. For example, if Candidate X just graduated from Dept of Something at Some U, s/he will likely not get a tenure-track professorship there. However, if Candidate X does a postdoc elsewhere, proves her/his independence by a strong research program and good teaching s/he could apply for a job at Dept of Something, Some U and have the same likelihood of getting hired as any other candidate (all other things being equal).

[captain_obvious]

[quote author=zowie link=topic=42727.msg704235#msg704235 I know a lot of people who went on to do various combinations of degrees (bachelor's, master's, PhD) at the same institutions, irrespective of the school. A few programs may be reluctant to allow this, but for the most part, if one continues one's studies in a way that s/he can grow and eventually become independent, getting accepted to the same place is not uncommon (even at good schools). If there are no growth opportunities, that may be an issue.

It must depend (as always) on the field.  In my field it is extremely uncommon for top departments to admit their own undergrads to their grad programs, no matter how good the undergrad is.  When it happens, there's usually a darn good (and persuasively argued!) reason.

[pink_]

I got my B.A. and my M.A. from the same school but was told point blank when they accepted me to the M.A. that I would not be accepted to the Ph.D. if I aplied because the dept. thought it would be 'professional suicide' to get all three degrees from the same place.  So I went elsewhere for the Ph.d. and have lived happily ever after (at least for the purposes of this story).

When I got to Ph.D.ville, I found out that it was not at all uncommon for that dept. to accept it's own undergrads into the grad program.  Out of every class of  12, there would usually be one from the undergrad program.  I thought and still think that the dept is doing these undergrads a serious disservice in not advising students that this might not be in their best interests, but apparently, I was the only one who thought that way.

[fiona]

I agree with pink_lady about the disservice. People going for Ph.Ds in the humanities need to know that they'll have to be ready to move around the country for jobs. If they're cocooning at the same school for all degrees, they haven't had the experience of movng, and are often reluctant to do so, and more scared than if they'd been moving all along.

The Fiona

[seniorscholar]

I have a colleague who was rejected twice from hu's alma mater (Georgetown University) and was told the second time NOT to apply again.  Is this standard?

We certainly don't encourage anyone to apply even a second time after being rejected (it says so on our application form); and I can't imagine that we would even read yet one more plea from someone we'd rejected twice, even if that person weren't our own undergrad; we'd just dump it in the trash right away. Georgetown did the person a favor by telling hu not to apply again.

[captain_obvious]

Huh.  That's really interesting, Senior Scholar.  When I was applying, my undergrad advisor told me that, as a generally strong candidate, I shouldn't think twice about applying again if a school I really wanted rejected me.  His argument was that, very often, good students don't get admitted for a myriad of reasons not related to the individual candidate: too many people already in your subfield in the program, your putative advisor is on leave and not reading applications this year, whatever.  The theory, I think, is that, for a good student, strong interest (as evidenced by applying again) might be enough to outweigh these other non-personal factors..... or the circumstances might simply change to make room for you in the program.  Obviously, for a weak candidate, his advice would have been different.

Now I never had a chance to test this theory because, mercifully, I got in on my first try, but I wonder what you think of his reasoning?

I have a colleague who was rejected twice from hu's alma mater (Georgetown University) and was told the second time NOT to apply again.  Is this standard?

We certainly don't encourage anyone to apply even a second time after being rejected (it says so on our application form); and I can't imagine that we would even read yet one more plea from someone we'd rejected twice, even if that person weren't our own undergrad; we'd just dump it in the trash right away. Georgetown did the person a favor by telling hu not to apply again.

[pink_]

At least in English, the grad admissions process is a fickle thing once the pool has been narrowed to the top 40 or so candidates.  If a candidate had made that cut, then I would think s/he could apply again and *maybe* get a different result.  But if the candidate had made it that far with my U, chances are that s/he got in to another comparable program.  If the candidate didn't make it that far, then applying again wouldn't change anything.

[chemystery]

When I was applying to graduate school, I applied to three highly ranked, selective universities and my alma mater, which was not as selective, as a back up school.  After I had been accepted to all four schools, my undergraduate research professor told me that the committee at my alma mater had seriously considered rejecting me, as they truly felt it would be in my best interest to attend a different school and diversify.  I was thankful they didn't because they were the first school I hear from and I think getting a "no" from my back-up school would have crushed me.

I went to one of the other schools, many states away.