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[mystictechgal]

Thanks, Chaos. That makes sense (and I prefer it to my initial thought that "heritage" might be an euphemism for older).

It causes me to wonder about something else, though: I know that English is one of the harder languages to learn, but are remedial language classes (not to mention, no guaranteed 'A' classes for native speakers) the sole province of English? Are "heritage"/native speakers of other languages so well schooled in their tongues that an 'A' in a college-level language class is a guarantee? I think that I'm fairly fluent in English, but I'd still be hard pressed to walk, cold, into a test asking me to diagram a sentence, or to identify and correctly specify each part of speech using the proper terminology. I might do better than many, but I'd still want to study to refresh my memory, and I'd by no means assume that I'd ace it without that study (or, possibly, even then). Are "heritage" speakers of other languages so good that the 'A' is a guarantee, or do they just think that they must be? I'd think that even in other languages there might be colloquial sloppiness that becomes ingrained over time, too. No?

In high school I had the highest grade in Spanish (oh why didn't I stick with it?), and that's not my heritage.  Some of the "heritage" students did think it would be an easy A; others didn't.  I think the second group understood there was a difference between textbook Spanish and colloquial Spanish, not to mention the variances in the language in different countries.  Maybe some of the ones who won't leave WCG's class realize this, too.

Thanks. That's kind of what I thought. Perhaps, some are there, as you suggest, and I hope, to learn the textbook version of their language. If so, let's hope that they won't be discouraged by an attitude that suggests that they have no business being there--whether that attitude comes from their fellow students, or worse, from their professors.

I'm sure there are undoubtedly those trying to scam their way to an easy 'A'. I'm equally certain that there should be measures available to disabuse them of that sense of entitlement, and keep them from disrupting class, without making every heritage student feel unwelcome, much less signaling "open season" for fellow students to attack them for their enrollment.

Sorry, but the description of what transpired, and how it came about, leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

[peppergal]

MTG, I also taught in a language department where we occasionally had heritage learners trying to game the system.  The most egregious example was a student who had completed the equivalent of high school in a country where Language is spoken, but then signed up for first semester Language.  Of course she thought she could get an easy A, since everyone else in the class was having their first experience with Language (on the level of "The ball is red" and "I walk to school", not diagramming sentences or producing college-level texts).  We encouraged heritage learners to take the advanced grammar class, or other upper-level classes, but first semester is entirely inappropriate for them, and their presence in the class can lead to frustration on the part of the other students.

Heritage Gamer ended up failing the course, since tests and the final exam (which is all she ever showed up for) only made up for 25% of the total course grade (the rest was homework and daily vocab quizzes, which she never completed since she was never in class).  We learned that she was a heritage speaker when she protested the grade to the dean, but she lost the grade appeal on the grounds that her grade was completely according to the policies in the syllabus, which she clearly had a copy of, since she knew when all the tests were and showed up only on those days.

[westcoastgirl]

Thanks, Chaos. That makes sense (and I prefer it to my initial thought that "heritage" might be an euphemism for older).

It causes me to wonder about something else, though: I know that English is one of the harder languages to learn, but are remedial language classes (not to mention, no guaranteed 'A' classes for native speakers) the sole province of English? Are "heritage"/native speakers of other languages so well schooled in their tongues that an 'A' in a college-level language class is a guarantee? I think that I'm fairly fluent in English, but I'd still be hard pressed to walk, cold, into a test asking me to diagram a sentence, or to identify and correctly specify each part of speech using the proper terminology. I might do better than many, but I'd still want to study to refresh my memory, and I'd by no means assume that I'd ace it without that study (or, possibly, even then). Are "heritage" speakers of other languages so good that the 'A' is a guarantee, or do they just think that they must be? I'd think that even in other languages there might be colloquial sloppiness that becomes ingrained over time, too. No?

This is a problem most language departments address very thoroughly so there are full policies in place, placement tests and even "X class for native speakers." The issues you've brought to light are very real ones, but I can guarantee that the "seat holders" do not fulfill these conditions, though over 80% of the class does (in that they were raised speaking and or reading the language, but they don't know the grammar. They are a pleasure to teach). The few I'm referring to were actually educated in their countries of origin and had spent 18 years or so learning in this language. In fact, on the first day of class, I had to communicate with at least two in the target language in order to hold a conversation informing them that it would be better to move up to another level or at least take the placement test. The language isn't written in the Latin script and we spend much of the first semester accomplishing the basics. There is no way that someone who has been educated in a country where this language is spoken does not know the alphabet. It's the equivalent of me sitting through a kindergarten class. In the meantime, people are waitlisted for the class and can't get in. I do my best to ask them to be honest with themselves. In the end, I don't police too much, so there are a few in the class. When we do speaking drills, I have to constantly remind them not to use vocabulary or syntax that we haven't formally studied. It's frustrating for everyone and is brought up on evaluations.

[westcoastgirl]

Thanks, Chaos. That makes sense (and I prefer it to my initial thought that "heritage" might be an euphemism for older).

It causes me to wonder about something else, though: I know that English is one of the harder languages to learn, but are remedial language classes (not to mention, no guaranteed 'A' classes for native speakers) the sole province of English? Are "heritage"/native speakers of other languages so well schooled in their tongues that an 'A' in a college-level language class is a guarantee? I think that I'm fairly fluent in English, but I'd still be hard pressed to walk, cold, into a test asking me to diagram a sentence, or to identify and correctly specify each part of speech using the proper terminology. I might do better than many, but I'd still want to study to refresh my memory, and I'd by no means assume that I'd ace it without that study (or, possibly, even then). Are "heritage" speakers of other languages so good that the 'A' is a guarantee, or do they just think that they must be? I'd think that even in other languages there might be colloquial sloppiness that becomes ingrained over time, too. No?

In high school I had the highest grade in Spanish (oh why didn't I stick with it?), and that's not my heritage.  Some of the "heritage" students did think it would be an easy A; others didn't.  I think the second group understood there was a difference between textbook Spanish and colloquial Spanish, not to mention the variances in the language in different countries.  Maybe some of the ones who won't leave WCG's class realize this, too.

Thanks. That's kind of what I thought. Perhaps, some are there, as you suggest, and I hope, to learn the textbook version of their language. If so, let's hope that they won't be discouraged by an attitude that suggests that they have no business being there--whether that attitude comes from their fellow students, or worse, from their professors.

I'm sure there are undoubtedly those trying to scam their way to an easy 'A'. I'm equally certain that there should be measures available to disabuse them of that sense of entitlement, and keep them from disrupting class, without making every heritage student feel unwelcome, much less signaling "open season" for fellow students to attack them for their enrollment.

Sorry, but the description of what transpired, and how it came about, leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

Please don't assume to know very much about my situation regarding heritage learners. I have no problem with you asking me to elaborate, but here you seem to be accusing me of having a poor attitude and frankly you are way off base. I have plenty of experience teaching this class, living in the areas where the target language is spoken and handling these issues. I certainly don't have a bad attitude toward my students; I'm sure of that and my evaluations testify to this.

An anecdote: One of my best students is an older student at large. She's very serious and among the top students. She's never had exposure to this language. Students at large register last. She let me know over winter break that she wouldn't be continuing because there was no room for her. She comes to campus just for this class. My hands are tied. She did manage to get in, though, by watching the website very carefully. In the meantime, there are several new students in class who are in violation of the policies of the university. How do I know this? Because I grade their homework and they are using syntax way beyond what a first year student should know.

Edited to add: I looked at my roster just for fun. 24 of my 30 students are the heritage learners in the sense that they had prior exposure to the language. Most of these students knew the alphabet last semester. I was aware they didn't know grammar and never had a problem with that.

I'm speaking about a totally different type of heritage learner and perhaps I should have been more clear about that since people seem eager to pounce.

[tinyzombie]

Are you talking to MTG? I don't see any "pouncing" in her post.

[burnie]

That's better than what I was thinking....I thought their parents were alumni who made generous donations, or something.

Thanks, Chaos!

Thanks, Chaos. That makes sense (and I prefer it to my initial thought that "heritage" might be an euphemism for older).

It causes me to wonder about something else, though: I know that English is one of the harder languages to learn, but are remedial language classes (not to mention, no guaranteed 'A' classes for native speakers) the sole province of English? Are "heritage"/native speakers of other languages so well schooled in their tongues that an 'A' in a college-level language class is a guarantee? I think that I'm fairly fluent in English, but I'd still be hard pressed to walk, cold, into a test asking me to diagram a sentence, or to identify and correctly specify each part of speech using the proper terminology. I might do better than many, but I'd still want to study to refresh my memory, and I'd by no means assume that I'd ace it without that study (or, possibly, even then). Are "heritage" speakers of other languages so good that the 'A' is a guarantee, or do they just think that they must be? I'd think that even in other languages there might be colloquial sloppiness that becomes ingrained over time, too. No?

[chemystery]

That's better than what I was thinking....I thought their parents were alumni who made generous donations, or something.

Thanks, Chaos!

Thanks, Chaos. That makes sense (and I prefer it to my initial thought that "heritage" might be an euphemism for older).

It causes me to wonder about something else, though: I know that English is one of the harder languages to learn, but are remedial language classes (not to mention, no guaranteed 'A' classes for native speakers) the sole province of English? Are "heritage"/native speakers of other languages so well schooled in their tongues that an 'A' in a college-level language class is a guarantee? I think that I'm fairly fluent in English, but I'd still be hard pressed to walk, cold, into a test asking me to diagram a sentence, or to identify and correctly specify each part of speech using the proper terminology. I might do better than many, but I'd still want to study to refresh my memory, and I'd by no means assume that I'd ace it without that study (or, possibly, even then). Are "heritage" speakers of other languages so good that the 'A' is a guarantee, or do they just think that they must be? I'd think that even in other languages there might be colloquial sloppiness that becomes ingrained over time, too. No?

That was my assumption as well, burnie.

A classmate in grad school told me that he fulfilled his foreign language requirement that way.  His parents had immigrated from Other Country and he was fully bilingual.  He signed up for Other Language 101 and tried his best to pretend that he didn't already know it.  The professor caught on and busted him by asking him a question that a beginner wouldn't have understood or had any idea how to answer.  He realized he had been caught just a moment too late.  The professor allowed him to stay in the course but put him to work helping the other students.

[libwitch]

Student on cell phone:

...No problem.  It was due today (Wed), but I will just tell the professor that I will try to turn it in Friday, because I am still trying to figure out the homework assignment.  That won't be a problem, right?


I think I twitched a bit when I went by.

[llanfair]

Student on cell phone:

...No problem.  It was due today (Wed), but I will just tell the professor that I will try to turn it in Friday, because I am still trying to figure out the homework assignment.  That won't be a problem, right?


I think I twitched a bit when I went by.

Boy, you're a stronger person than I, LibWitch.  I think I'd've had to trip that student as I passed.

[historianintraining]

I overheard this conversation outside the library.  I can only assume that Student 1 is a freshman.

Student 1: "So I have this cold.  I'm all stuffy."

Student 2: "Sucks."

Student 1: "Yeah, and I was awake at night feeling all icky.  And my mom isn't here to bring me tea and open my window."

Student 2: "Yeah."

Student 1: "So I tried to get my roommate to do it.  I called and called, and then when he finally came, he was all pissy.  I just needed tea!  And someone to open a window!  And he was like, 'It's 3:00 in the morning, stop screaming at me."

Student 2: "Dick."

[dr_starbucks]

I overheard this conversation outside the library.  I can only assume that Student 1 is a freshman.

Student 1: "So I have this cold.  I'm all stuffy."

Student 2: "Sucks."

Student 1: "Yeah, and I was awake at night feeling all icky.  And my mom isn't here to bring me tea and open my window."

Student 2: "Yeah."

Student 1: "So I tried to get my roommate to do it.  I called and called, and then when he finally came, he was all pissy.  I just needed tea!  And someone to open a window!  And he was like, 'It's 3:00 in the morning, stop screaming at me."

Student 2: "Dick."

That is both hilarious and disturbing.

[paultuttle]

I overheard this conversation outside the library.  I can only assume that Student 1 is a freshman.

Student 1: "So I have this cold.  I'm all stuffy."

Student 2: "Sucks."

Student 1: "Yeah, and I was awake at night feeling all icky.  And my mom isn't here to bring me tea and open my window."

Student 2: "Yeah."

Student 1: "So I tried to get my roommate to do it.  I called and called, and then when he finally came, he was all pissy.  I just needed tea!  And someone to open a window!  And he was like, 'It's 3:00 in the morning, stop screaming at me."

Student 2: "Dick."

Sometimes all we want is for someone to take care of us as though we were children again. I get that way when I'm sick--but only with people I know VERY well. Like a life partner or an immediate family member.

Sounds like this guy wanted someone to sing to him that "soft kitty" song from "The Big Bang Theory."

:big geeky grin:

[mystictechgal]

Intended thread this time:

This one's not funny, but it did leave me wondering WTH I'd missed.

I was about 5 minutes late to my first class today. We were supposed to have our first exam (which was supposed to be 30 questions, M/C, open note). When I got there the prof had one set of students at the front desk making "fossils" using clay, shell halves, and plaster of Paris and watching how water (as poured into a sand filled tray with small rocks as impediments) works its way around impediments to continue to flow downhill). The rest of the class were working at their desks, with the group that sits behind me chatting up a storm. My partner told me that the prof had decided to make the exam a take-home, and that we were working on answering homework questions. I got the questions, sat down, and started in. The back-of-the-room crowd continued to chat. We're now only 10 minutes into class (3 hours long).

All of a sudden, the prof just exploded. He ran to the back of the room and screamed (literally at the top of his lungs) at the chatters. He informed them that he was tired of their behavior and that if they didn't shut the hell up and get to work he was calling Security and having them thrown out. He was working with other students and if they didn't want to shut up and work they could GET OUT NOW!

Wow. They're a generally clueless bunch, but they're usually not badly behaved. Just WTH had they been up to in the 5 minutes I'd missed that nuclear ensued after only 10 minutes? I've actually never seen a professor get so agitated before, and I've been taking undergraduate classes for a loooong time.

(Hmmm, I just remembered... I missed class last week for my foreclosure hearing. Perhaps this was a hold-over from something that happened then; must remember to ask my partner. In isolation it was out of the blue bizarre, bordering on the surreal. Don't think he'll have any problems with them in the future, though. Not a one of them opened their mouths for the rest of the class--sadly, even when it might have been appropriate.)

[galactic_hedgehog]

Wow.  So, did the chatters shape up or did they get out?

[palla]

Wow is right. Let us know what you find out about the background to that story!