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News: Talk online about your experiences as an adjunct, visiting assistant professor, postdoc, or other contract faculty member.
 
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Author Topic: 22-year old adjunct: acceptable, or insult?  (Read 30809 times)
larryc
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2007, 07:40:38 PM »

Does anyone know which on-line schools hire adjunct instructors with a bachlors degree and expereince in the classroom?  (masters not required)

None. At a minimum you need an MA.
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hollywoodbound
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2007, 09:12:39 PM »

Does anyone know which on-line schools hire adjunct instructors with a bachelors degree and expereince in the classroom?  (masters not required)

None. At a minimum you need an MA.
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bamabound
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2007, 12:27:00 AM »

Does anyone know which on-line schools hire adjunct instructors with a bachlors degree and expereince in the classroom?  (masters not required)

None. At a minimum you need an MA.

Some community colleges hire instructors without an advanced degree for fields like culinary arts, automotive shop and others where there is no related Masters.  However, most of those classes would be in-person and not online.  See http://www.cccco.edu/divisions/esed/aa_ir/psmq/min_qual/min_quals%20_revFeb2406.pdf for California's requirements. 

« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 12:28:59 AM by adjunctanon » Logged
oldfullprof
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2007, 04:57:28 PM »

Consider yourself zen-pushed-in-the-mud.  When I was non-reappointed at Mafia Tech, they gave one of my classes the next semester to a truly evil stupid pushy masters grad they had hanging around.  Hu'd tried to undermine me multiple times when I was teaching there.
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tolerantly
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2007, 11:38:52 PM »

I'm still not hearing anything about whether or not he's any good.
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katgut5
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2007, 02:53:30 AM »

"Tolerantly,"
In answer to your question, it doesn't matter how good he is. The issue is whether some standard should be applied in hiring faculty. What if an 18-year-old could teach it? Should a university hire one?
BTW-at the department in question, an adjunct was replaced in the past because she lacked a masters.
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marlborough
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2007, 11:47:15 AM »

I was 20 years old and teaching US and Western Civ surveys at an out-of-the-way community college in Oregon (i.e. not a lot of competition for the job)  while I finished writing up my MA.  Technically, as long as I had finished my required number of graduate credits in history, this was okay by Oregon.

Then, I had the MA and went off to Alabama for grad school as a 21 year old and taught at a CC there.

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tolerantly
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2007, 10:18:55 PM »

"Tolerantly,"
In answer to your question, it doesn't matter how good he is.

Wrong.  That is the only thing that matters. 
For the last couple years I've been watching the increasing bulls***s surrounding degrees, and curricula, and pedagogy, and pecking orders.  Lost in there is the reality that the quality of the teaching matters, and it matters as tangibly as making solid mortgage loans matters.  Actually it matters more.  Now I am not surprised that the academy is too busy with its own insecurities and pecking orders to pull its head out of its ass on this score, but it costs us, and it's going to cost more.   
 
We have a population that cannot count on its fingers to ten, and on this we're supposed to be a superpower.  I'm not kidding about this, by the way.  I've worked in American towns where it's a minor miracle to hire clerical help that can collate pages correctly when the pages have numbers on them.  If you find a good teacher who's willing to work for the bulls*** money you get adjuncting, then for God's sake stop defending the sanctity of your stupid degree and recognize that this is a good thing.  Then go and learn something from him. 
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katgut5
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2007, 01:34:07 PM »

So "Tolerantly,"
Where is the limit? Using your logic, a mature-looking 14-year-old, if he/she knows the subject matter, should be hired by a university, right?

Do standards matter? According you, no. Should lawyers have to pass the bar? Should dentists be board-certified? Would you want an 18-year-old flying your plane no matter how good her hand-eye coordination was?

Unfortunately, there are other issues. And there are reasons why colleges and universities should have minimum standards in place for its faculty. Teaching demands a certain maturity, and a willingness to be strict. For instance, to bust cheaters, and then to be able to explain the situation not only to the dean but to parents as well. This would not be an easy situation for someone who is teaching his peers, or even friends. And an even worse situation as the students rise in age relative to the teacher. Students want to respect a teacher, and that respect does not necessarily come just from technical knowledge. A 40-year-old who has lived a life in his/her field is much more likely to command respect than someone who just got a degree. I remember when pair of very bright, knowledgeable but young teachers team-taught and bumbled their way through my undergraduate course. It was a top-20 school, and because of that, even 20 years later, I still feel a little ripped-off.

As college costs rise, students have to right to demand something for their money, and a college that puts very young teachers
in front of a class--no matter how great the new climbing wall is--are at risk for being seen as a place that has lowered its standards. At our university, the top reason given for transfers out is low standards.

The other issue here is that this young teacher has been given the work over other, more qualified teachers. For all your post-modern and populist rhetoric, you would be steamed as well.

To imply that those of us with doctorate should just get over ourselves; that our degrees and experience mean nothing indicates you probably never got yours. I learned a huge amount from my degree and believe it makes me a better teacher.

And your suggestion that I shut up and learn from the young teacher...well, he was my student. And got a B-.
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octoprof
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2007, 01:39:01 PM »

I'm still not hearing anything about whether or not he's any good.

Nor am I hearing anyone screaming age discrimination (i.e. he can't be hired because he's too young...?).

For the record, i started teaching at 22, before the masters was complete.
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tolerantly
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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2007, 05:40:35 PM »

So "Tolerantly,"
Where is the limit? Using your logic, a mature-looking 14-year-old, if he/she knows the subject matter, should be hired by a university, right?

You got it.

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Do standards matter? According you, no.

No, I say they do.  The standard is, "Can he teach it well?"  Not, "Has he got certain letters after his name?"

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Should lawyers have to pass the bar? Should dentists be board-certified? Would you want an 18-year-old flying your plane no matter how good her hand-eye coordination was?

We are talking precisely about ability.  And I was an 18-year-old pilot, so, apparently, yes.  (You might recall that we rely on them, or kids a few years older, in wartime.)  Lawyers and dentists operate in private practice and are not necessarily overseen.  Adjuncts are.  Your comparison is not good.

Quote
Unfortunately, there are other issues. And there are reasons why colleges and universities should have minimum standards in place for its faculty. Teaching demands a certain maturity, and a willingness to be strict. For instance, to bust cheaters, and then to be able to explain the situation not only to the dean but to parents as well. This would not be an easy situation for someone who is teaching his peers, or even friends. And an even worse situation as the students rise in age relative to the teacher. Students want to respect a teacher, and that respect does not necessarily come just from technical knowledge. A 40-year-old who has lived a life in his/her field is much more likely to command respect than someone who just got a degree. I remember when pair of very bright, knowledgeable but young teachers team-taught and bumbled their way through my undergraduate course. It was a top-20 school, and because of that, even 20 years later, I still feel a little ripped-off.

More baloney.  The question isn't "is he bright and knowledgeable"; it's "can he teach".  If he can, then his age and sheepskins don't matter.  As for the rest, I had no problem busting cheaters, failing people, engaging a 50-year-old racist student, and bleeding red ink all over manuscripts when I was 23.  They paid me all the respect I demanded, which was that they respect the subject, do the work, and behave reasonably in class.  Actually they paid me more, but I felt it was unnecessary and misplaced.  I argued with deans and talked to parents.

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As college costs rise, students have to right to demand something for their money

Yes.  People who know the subject and can teach.

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, and a college that puts very young teachers
in front of a class--no matter how great the new climbing wall is--are at risk for being seen as a place that has lowered its standards.

Baloney. I cannot seriously believe that you are telling me your university loses kids because you have fantastic teachers who are very young.  If the problem's that the kids can't see past "young" to "fantastic", then you ain't helping.  Though I'd wonder where you are, because the kids I see here are remarkably open and grateful to good teachers.

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The other issue here is that this young teacher has been given the work over other, more qualified teachers. For all your post-modern and populist rhetoric, you would be steamed as well.

Wrong.  If he was given the work over better teachers, I would be steamed.  Years of service, degrees, I don't care.  When someone does better work than I do and gets my job, he earned it.  It's happened.

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To imply that those of us with doctorate should just get over ourselves; that our degrees and experience mean nothing indicates you probably never got yours. I learned a huge amount from my degree and believe it makes me a better teacher.

No, I'm directly saying that those of you who can't see a good teacher unless he's got a PhD attached should get over yourselves.  You in particular, though.  I'm tickled that you learned so much from your degree, but perhaps you might acknowledge that people manage to become very good teachers by other means as well.  Primarily by being very sharp, natural teachers.  I'll take one of those over a top-20-school PhD any day of the week, though plenty of them are top-20-school PhDs.

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And your suggestion that I shut up and learn from the young teacher...well, he was my student. And got a B-.

Perhaps he's a better teacher than he was a student.  You should go see.  If his performance is bad, take notes, and turn him in.  Though really you should send someone else, because you've got such a blazing bias against him, based on utter baloney. 
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tolerantly
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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2007, 05:44:24 PM »

So "Tolerantly,"
Where is the limit? Using your logic, a mature-looking 14-year-old, if he/she knows the subject matter, should be hired by a university, right?

You got it.

Sorry, should've been more specific.  If he not only knows the subject matter but is a good teacher, then yes, absolutely.  I don't care if he's a rooster, so long as he's sharp, knows his stuff, can speak clearly, and teaches well.

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katgut5
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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2007, 02:22:20 PM »

"Tolerantly"
Where to begin. For starters, your propensity to fire away belligerent at the cost of logic, and your frequent use of "baloney" and "wrong" belies a certain bitterness of your own towards the Establishment. It makes me wonder why your moniker isn't "Intolerantly." Perhaps you were never suited to rise in a hierarchy. It does seem from your answer that you never got your Ph.d, and that you harbor enmity towards those of us who do. Who knows? Maybe you could never finish your dissertation. I find your notions of a "meritopia" (if I may coin a term)
somewhat quaint, and probably somewhat disingenuous. But certainly not academic--your argument contains mostly contradiction, and often inaccurate at that. Take this phrase:

"We are talking precisely about ability.  And I was an 18-year-old pilot, so, apparently, yes.  (You might recall that we rely on them, or kids a few years older, in wartime.)  Lawyers and dentists operate in private practice and are not necessarily overseen.  Adjuncts are.  Your comparison is not good."

Did we rely on 18-year olds to fly combat missions? Yes, in WW II. And they were cannon fodder. Where else could the country find a large supply of testosterone-filled men willing to risk almost certain death? However, I highly doubt that the modern military entrusts it's $20 million aircraft to many pilots much under the age of 30. Lawyers? As young associates, they absolutely do have mentors and their work is scrutinized by senior associates and partners until they can be trusted.
And dentists go through rigorous internships and fellowships. I have taught in a variety of positions in various colleges and universities, and in my experience, I was observed very, very little. It is certainly not institutionalized across the country. And a student I don't recall a young teacher ever being observed.

So you were an 18-year old pilot? So what? If I got on an airliner and the pilot was 18, I'd take the next flight. My point is not that young people aren't smart or capable--there are always exceptional young people in any field. But teaching is about soft skills and acculturation, and experience in a field. What happens when our theoretical young wunderkind is in his office and a student drops by for advice on graduate programs? On job opportunities in the field? On journals or avenues of research? On alternate arguments for class material and the texts in which they can be found? On related questions about the field? In my field, music, I have wide variety of experience that a 22-year-old will not have. I've played in professional orchestras. In recording studios. As a soloist. I've taught ages 5-80. I've conducted orchestras and arranged music. I've performed with leading soloists. I've played with leading pop artists. I know who to call to rent music and which edition to request. I know which graduate programs are rigorous and which are easy. I know which teachers across the country are good and who are ineffective letches. I know which music fields have job openings and which don't.
I have been taught different perspectives on just about every subject and have formed my own opinions on what works best. This is what I bring to the classroom and what the 22-year-old does not. The 22-year-old has one perspective from the one class he took in the subject. The 22-year-old can teach fixed-do solfege from rote. I can teach both types and I know why moveable do is better. My Ph.d that you resent was not the start of my education, but rather the culmination after I been out in the professional world for years.

While I don't have a problem with grad assistants, who are immersed in their field and under the wing of an advisor (I don't mind being treated by a young intern in the hospital if he's being supervised by the attending), I think the situation changes for BAs who just happen to still be in town.

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tolerantly
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« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2007, 06:16:52 PM »

Christ, you're a touchy bastard.  No, I don't resent your PhD, which you seem to be prepared to defend to the bloody death.  Believe it or not, I don't care about your PhD.  I don't have one.  I'm not a scholar.  I don't understand the attraction of the work, but apparently others do, which is all that matters.  (As it happens, in my field, my degree is about as fancy as they get.  It doesn't attach to any inherent merit, but thanks to the likes of you, it makes money.)

I've had a few extraordinarily good teachers along the way.  Most have not had PhDs; most have been artists, not scholars. A couple simply had no interest in the insane pettiness of academia, and figured they could work happily as independent scholars or in industry.

Re: your experience.  That's very nice, especially if it's germane to the class being taught.  There are some pretty sparky teenagers out there, though, and at this point quite a few rich ones who get some rather unusual opportunities.  If they're good, if they have the background, and if they can engage the students, then I see no reason why anyone should necessarily hire you over them.  I don't really like the idea of giving the opportunities to young people who start with such wild advantages, but if they can do it, they can do it.  And if someone asks them for advice, I would expect them to help as they could, then be frank and outline the limits of their experience, and suggest other sources.  But then I would expect that of any serious person. 

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I find your notions of a "meritopia" (if I may coin a term)
somewhat quaint, and probably somewhat disingenuous. But certainly not academic--

In what corrupt burg of the mind do you live?  If you ever leave academia, you may find that merit is not only important but exceptionally well-compensated.  Joseph can speak to that. 

Well, nevermind.  Your Establishment, what's left of it, is slowly being washed away by the Kaplan Universities of the world.  Which is a pity.  For those of us who hang around on the outside of real universities, the leisure and wealth you maintain, and the seriousness you used to have about things that don't pay, are all very valuable.  You used to have good catering, too.  Kaplan and Phoenix and the rest have no interest in that sort of thing, and they're even less interested in merit than you are. 

Frankly, katgut, it sounds to me like you're a musician who's afraid of being musician-poor, you want a sinecure, and you think you've earned it with that PhD.  Well, I imagine there are similar things now happening to writers.  Imagine their disappointment.
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katgut5
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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2007, 02:22:25 AM »

(In)tolerantly,
Just for the record, my adjunct teaching activities are rather limited. I spend much more of my time as a performing musician--which I'm not afraid to be, as you suggest.

I may be a touchy bastard, but your argument that universities should just let anyone of any age come in and teach a class is untenable, and frankly, rather silly. And I suspect you know that. Departments don't want "sparky teenagers"--they want professionals. And your latest suggestion that maybe a rich kid who has had some unusual experience would be a good hire. Sure, great idea.

The simple question is, why should a college actually let some kid come in a teach? What's the motivation in the first place, especially with so many talented academics out there to begin with? How would anyone know whether your theoretical 18-year-old could teach? And why would a self-respecting department care? The fact is, as many have pointed out, accrediting bodies would flunk department who do this. I suspect that our department would be in trouble if NASM had found out on their recent campus tour.

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