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[_mara_]

How likely is it that I could negotiate tenure if I took a job elsewhere?

I am in the 4th year on the t-t and have a nice research record. I don't want to start all over again (who does?). I've heard of time counted toward tenure, but not really tenure coming with a new job.

Is this something that's even done anymore? Is it presumptuous to even think such a thing?

[drsyn]

Oh, I have my popcorn.

[_mara_]

Eat away...my question is legitimate.

We just hired someone as an associate professor with the stipulation that he go up for full this year. The same thing goes for another colleague of mine.

Would something similar be struck for an assistant prof? Is this done? Why or why not?

[marlborough]

A department bringing in a person close to tenure is considering not just that person's research and publication record, but holding an audition for a potentially long-term colleague, so it is unlikely, even with friends already in the department, that you could get tenure right from the starting point.  You would probably get credit for "time served" but would need to put in a solid year (or two) before their administration would be comfortable making the investment.  

There's also the issue that you mentioned on the other thread--are you going to stay put at these institutions or will you be looking to move because you can't bloom where you're planted?  If you get your friends to help you set up an accelerated tenure clock at their place, and then you leave after one or two years, they may be aggrieved about it.  If you stay and you continue to hate the place, that's a problem, too.

If you know you need to leave your current location, why not put most of your job-seeking energy into applying at places that would be acceptable for you, even if they don't come with the personal contact?  

[iomhaigh]

I've seen this happen when the person was tenured somewhere else and came in tenured to our place.  There was MUCH bitterness that the person was an associate and came in as full without having to go through the promotion process.

I've also seen people negotiate to be brought in at the associate level at places where the promotion was not tied to tenure. 

But to negotiate tenure as an assistant professor.... I can't even imagine what kind of pissiness that would cause. 

[_mara_]

This makes sense to me.

My campus has such a sense of non-colleagueality (not people fighting, but people just not connecting) that I sometimes forget that other universites are different.

Duh.

[busyslinky]

It is rare that you can accomplish this goal of tenure directly at another school.  Of course, it depends.  If you are moving to a 'lower' level school it can happen.  A lateral move will probably not get you a tenured position, but you can ask for an Associate without tenure.  

You say your research is very good, but is it stellar?  Did you publish in the very best journal in your discipline (not sub-discipline) and were there a number of them.  Do you have grants, that you can bring with you from the most prestigious granting agencies?  Are you in a high-demand field where it is difficult to find faculty members?  If you can answer yes to all of these, then you might have a good chance of landing a tenured position at a lateral move.  Getting a tenured position at a top-tier or better school is highly unlikely.

If I were you, I would not truly mention this option until after you know you will be offered a position.  You can hint at it, but don't state outright that it is what you are looking for, or else you will probably be looking for a long time.

Also, being an assistant professor is not such a bad thing, you do get benefits that other higher level positions do not get.  Every school is different and you should determine the benefits of getting an assistant versus an associate level position.  For example, some schools will give lessened teaching loads for younger faculty members as well as summer support (to help them start up).  But negotiating for tenured and associate level positions will automatically put you on a different expectation level.  If you come in with high expectations and you don't deliver, it won't be a fun time.

[_mara_]

Busy slinky: Without tooting my own horn, I can answer yes to all of those questions. It's been a good few years for me. However, tenure is not something that I would outright ask for-other than credit for time served (and, of course, this would be after a job has been offered). In my field, this is the norm. I've not heard of "advanced" t-t faculty (as we say; 3+ years on the t-t) starting over from scratch at a new uni.

[_mara_]

Marlborough: I'm definitely applying to universities in cities I would love to live in, as well as universities in cities that are not tops on my list. Who am I kidding? I would be thrilled to get an interview anywhere and taking another job is an exciting prospect. It's the moving part that scares to dickens out of me.

[busyslinky]

Let me be a little more specific:

If you can bring substantial sums of money (mid 6 figures and up) with you and the notoriety of numerous best journal (and there is usually ONE consensus best journal in a discipline) articles that can get tenure at a regular school (e.g. six or more), and your field is in very high demand, medicine, business (finance/accounting), engineering (if it is not in these I don't know what other field it may be, but these are the fields I mean), then by all means...ask for tenure.  You are a hot shot.

And good luck! I would certainly hire someone like that with tenure, no matter how much of a collegiality problem they would be.

[clean]

My advice is to not be too quick to jump for the promotion.

Here, promotion to associate is worth $3000 a year.  They offered to bring me in as associate, but for no more money than they would bring me in as an assistant.  So I came in with all the credit toward tenure and promotion that was allowable, and at the rank of assistant.  Last year I was promoted and tenured.  If I had come in as associate, I would not have met the requirements for full, and would have only been tenured. 

So my advice is to get all the credit you can get, and go up for tenure AND promotion ASAP.  Why turn down money on the way in?

clean

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Credit for time served is not an issue; any decent department will assume you will be asking for this.  For an extremely strong candidate we might be able to make an offer at the associate level, but without tenure.  On the other hand, we have had people at comparable or lesser institutions applying for jobs with us during their tenure year, and expecting that if we made them an offer it would be at the associate level.  Sorry, not going to happen, we are not a consolation prize.

Normally we give up to 4 years credit to an untenured applicant for post-PhD experience in a research/teaching position. - DvF

[historian]

I have one former colleague who did make the jump that way---in her tenure year to an R1 from an R2 (approx difference in schools) but she had a book that was standard fare in classes in her smallish national field, won two article prizes in the previous year and was on the board of the major sub-field journal.  Plus, all the usual more minor things.  Anywhere else she would have been an early tenure slam dunk---that she was not here, and was on the market at all, was that the chair openly told her he thought her field "stupid"   

Once the R1 offered her a job and (to her surprise) with tenure, suddenly the admin was all upset and offered tenure at our place outright. She refused and one week later was notified she won a major book prize for her newest book. Sweet.

[emperor_of_ice_cream]

Trixie, it can and does happen, esp. if your publications, etc., are as you say they are (it happened to me).  Are you applying for "open rank" positions?  That makes a difference too. 

[nocalprof]

In my move this year (just starting 4th year) from TT at a regional comprehensive to an R1 in January, I'll have 3 years credit toward tenure.  Tenure clocks at both places are 6 years, so they basically just give me credit for the 3 years at the first place.  I'm not a hot shot, but have respectable productivity.