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[sandrino]

I'm (again) considering a UK position, and while I'm quite excited about the potential job, and have worked out some obstacles that kept me from a similar job a year ago, I'm wondering how schooling works for my two late teens. How does the  transition from North American high school to 6th form to UK university work?

Kid #1 I think would be moving into 6th form next year (he's currently 16 and in gr. 11), but without any GCSEs. Would he be able to enter 6th form and choose A level subjects to study without GCSE background?

Kid #2 is now in a gap year, and would be wanting to enter a UK university next year, but without any A levels.

Any suggestions on how this would work? I know a bit about Open University as a possibility for Kid #2, but I'd be interested in any tales of students from North American high schools gaining entrance to UK universities.

If it's at all relevant, we'd likely be moving to an outer London suburb.

[dyst_uk]

There are a fair number of North Americans in UK universities (they even have thanksgiving celebrations at my uni for the relevant international students). 

This website may prove useful for kid #2:

http://www.ucas.com/apply/info.html

http://www.ucas.com/apply08/education/

The British Council's website may also be useful:

Generally: http://www.britishcouncil.org/usa-education.htm?mtklink=usa-homepage-education-link

More specifically for kid #2:
http://www.britishcouncil.org/usa-education-undergraduate-degree.htm

[sandgrounder]

Kid 2: depends what the educational background, standard of university desired and existing qualifications are. If kid 2 has a few APs at good grades, then all should be OK, although these subjects may need to map onto the subject they want to study e.g. if the university course demands 'A's at A-level in biology and physics then they're probably looking for '5's at AP in those subjects. But it varies a lot from place to place. To give you an idea here's what the LSE looks for from US applicants
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/studentRecruitment/country/usapage.htm
And from near the bottom of the pack here's London Metropolitan's requirements:
http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/library/a85052_3.pdf
Note you will still have to pay international fees as you have to live in the UK/EU for three years before you become a home student.

Kid 1 - starting A-levels - this I think would again very a lot depending on courses taken thus far at high school, subjects he/she wanted to study e.g. maths may be more of an issue than English as you have to have reached a certain level in Maths to start A-level whereas with English I'd have thought a bright kid would adapt OK, and how confident and able he/she is academically. Is there a British Council anywhere near you - they are probably the best source of advice.

[scotia]

If you look at the websites for individual universities they often provide an indication of what is required for entry to students educated in the different countries (usually under 'International Students'). The departments tend not to show the details.

The Open University is geared towards distance learners who are working and studying - it does not have resident undergraduates - so would not give Kid 2 (hash key is not working) the 'traditional' university experience.

[sandrino]

Thanks, all, that's helpful. I've checked out a few university websites and the British Council websites, and so I think I understand entrance requirements for North Americans. I doubt kid #2 has the required AP/IB grades for entry into the university where I'll be working (her high school performance was far too similar to mine, unfortunately). I still have a couple of questions.

Sandgrounder, you say that my dependent children would be considered "international students" for three years, and pay correspondingly higher fees (about triple the home student fees).

Are you quite sure on this? As far as you know, does it make any difference about parents' visa status, since we'll be permanent residents of some kind, I imagine (I'll check this out with UK Immigration, but this could take a while I imagine).

Also, and I can anticipate the answer to this, do UK universities offer any form of tuition remission for dependents? I see nothing on the university website where I may be working.

[august_leo]

I lived in Europe (not UK) as a teenager. But I moved at age 14 (8th grade). I don't know if your child can move into 6th form, but I will say: The European "high school" system is FANTASTIC. I got a great education. My freshman English Prof. told me "you are starting at a level far beyond the others in this class."

UK universities are much cheaper than ones in the US. I don't know about tuition discounts but they do start out much less.

[sandgrounder]

Hi

Sorry yes I am sure. Entitlement to home fees is entirely based on length of residence in the UK/EU and the qualifying period is three years. Even UK citizens who've been living abroad have to pay international fees if they decide to return for university. This also goes for the student grant / loan system as far as I understand it. Given that our universities are state-funded, it's not unreasonable but leaves people like you in an awkward position. Here's the official blurb:

Definition of an international student for fees purposes
In accordance with The Education (Fees and Awards) Regulations 1983 (as amended), higher (overseas) levels of fee are payable by students who do not have a 'relevant connection' with the United Kingdom.
Students who have a 'relevant connection' will be charged the home levels of fee. In order to establish this 'relevant connection', certain elements are required, as follows:
the student has been ordinarily resident in the UK throughout the three-year period preceding 1 September, 1 January or 1 April closest to the beginning of the first term of his/her course; and
the student has not been resident therein, during any part of that three-year period, wholly or mainly for the purpose of receiving full-time education; and
any Overseas applicant who satisfies the 'ordinarily resident' criteria in (a) and (b) and who is applying for a course commencing after 1 September 1998 must also have settled status in the United Kingdom i.e. there must be no restriction on the length of stay in the UK.
Conditions (a), (b) and (c) must be satisfied in order that the student may establish the 'relevant connection', and be liable for the home level of fee.

Excepted Students. There are certain categories of 'excepted students' who, although they do not have a 'relevant connection' with the UK are liable to pay only the home rates of fee. These include:
a student who is a national of a member state of the European Union*, or who is the son or daughter of such a national, if:
the student has been ordinarily resident in the EU* or EEA** throughout the three-year period preceding 1 September, 1 January or 1 April closest to the beginning of the first term of his/her course; and
he/she has not been resident therein, during any part of that three-year period, wholly or mainly for the purpose of receiving full-time education;
a student who is an EEA migrant worker, or who is the spouse, son or daughter of an EEA migrant worker, if they meet the requirements in (i) and (ii) above.
a student whose failure to satisfy the three-year UK/EU/EEA residence requirement outlined above arises only because he/she, his/her spouse or parent was temporarily employed outside the UK/EU/EEA;
certain recently arrived immigrants who are formally 'settled' (in terms of the Immigration Act 1971, as amended) in the UK by 1 September, I January or 1 April closest to the beginning of the first term of their courses; and certain refugees and persons of similar status.

I've never heard of tuition remission as the tuition is almost entirely paid by the state through a tuition fee loan i.e. you have to apply and be eligible. I'd have thought scholarships are the only answer - details are normally found under admissions.

[the_walrus]

Perhaps the situation is different in scotland?  Or, if you send #2 elsewhere in EU?

Hi

Sorry yes I am sure. Entitlement to home fees is entirely based on length of residence in the UK/EU and the qualifying period is three years. Even UK citizens who've been living abroad have to pay international fees if they decide to return for university. This also goes for the student grant / loan system as far as I understand it. Given that our universities are state-funded, it's not unreasonable but leaves people like you in an awkward position. Here's the official blurb:

Definition of an international student for fees purposes
In accordance with The Education (Fees and Awards) Regulations 1983 (as amended), higher (overseas) levels of fee are payable by students who do not have a 'relevant connection' with the United Kingdom.
Students who have a 'relevant connection' will be charged the home levels of fee. In order to establish this 'relevant connection', certain elements are required, as follows:
the student has been ordinarily resident in the UK throughout the three-year period preceding 1 September, 1 January or 1 April closest to the beginning of the first term of his/her course; and
the student has not been resident therein, during any part of that three-year period, wholly or mainly for the purpose of receiving full-time education; and
any Overseas applicant who satisfies the 'ordinarily resident' criteria in (a) and (b) and who is applying for a course commencing after 1 September 1998 must also have settled status in the United Kingdom i.e. there must be no restriction on the length of stay in the UK.
Conditions (a), (b) and (c) must be satisfied in order that the student may establish the 'relevant connection', and be liable for the home level of fee.

Excepted Students. There are certain categories of 'excepted students' who, although they do not have a 'relevant connection' with the UK are liable to pay only the home rates of fee. These include:
a student who is a national of a member state of the European Union*, or who is the son or daughter of such a national, if:
the student has been ordinarily resident in the EU* or EEA** throughout the three-year period preceding 1 September, 1 January or 1 April closest to the beginning of the first term of his/her course; and
he/she has not been resident therein, during any part of that three-year period, wholly or mainly for the purpose of receiving full-time education;
a student who is an EEA migrant worker, or who is the spouse, son or daughter of an EEA migrant worker, if they meet the requirements in (i) and (ii) above.
a student whose failure to satisfy the three-year UK/EU/EEA residence requirement outlined above arises only because he/she, his/her spouse or parent was temporarily employed outside the UK/EU/EEA;
certain recently arrived immigrants who are formally 'settled' (in terms of the Immigration Act 1971, as amended) in the UK by 1 September, I January or 1 April closest to the beginning of the first term of their courses; and certain refugees and persons of similar status.

I've never heard of tuition remission as the tuition is almost entirely paid by the state through a tuition fee loan i.e. you have to apply and be eligible. I'd have thought scholarships are the only answer - details are normally found under admissions.

[snowbound]

Perhaps the situation is different in scotland?  Or, if you send #2 elsewhere in EU?

Yes, education is one of the areas controlled by the Scottish Parliament, so you shouldn't assume that the policies are identical to those operative in England.  Also, Scottish universities have a very different philosophical approach to education.  English education after the equivalent of 11th and 12th grades is very highly specialized. Students in the adcademic track come out of high school with an impressive knowledge in, say, history but not having taken math or English etc in the last 2 years of HS.  And at university, they will study only their field and closely related courses.  This can create problems for an American kid, who just hasn't had that kind of intensive preparation in any one area.

Scottish education has a far broader approach--a little closer to the American system.  In fact, the similarities are apparently due to the fact that the most influential educator in the American university education back in colonial days (can't remember name) was a Scot.

[snowbound]

  English education after the equivalent of 11th and 12th grades is very highly specialized.

No, I meant to say:   English education after the equivalent of 10th grade is very highly specialized.

That is, the specialization starts when the kids are about 15

[dyst_uk]

Thanks, all, that's helpful. I've checked out a few university websites and the British Council websites, and so I think I understand entrance requirements for North Americans. I doubt kid #2 has the required AP/IB grades for entry into the university where I'll be working (her high school performance was far too similar to mine, unfortunately). I still have a couple of questions.

Kid #2 may want to look at HNCs/HNDs/BTECs at local technical college/sixth form colleges.  That is generally cheaper, and they also have a broader bent (albeit within one subject still).  Also, kid #2 could look at A-levels if they wanted; nothing to stop them, and they may be a more in depth look at certain subjects.

[sandgrounder]

Sorry the fees situation applies to the whole of the UK not just England. I can't see any political party changing this at present. Having to extend the tuition fee loan system to all EU-resident students is proving quite costly as it is.

[the_walrus]

Despite the situation Sandgrounder outlines, apparently many americans still find it worthwhile to actually do their degree in the UK:

http://chronicle.com/subscribe/login?url=/weekly/v53/i34/34b01201.htm

Perhaps they're from wealthy families? 

[scotia]

The overseas student fees rulings apply at all UK universities (and I suspect throughout the EU).

In my experience (I have worked at Russell Group universities in both Scotland and England) the differences  outlined by snowbound are somewhat overstated. The only differences I have observed are in the somewhat broader first year at Scots universities - which have a four year degree course: the rest of the UK has three year course. The A level grades required for entry to equivalent courses at both institutions are more or less identical so there is no great advantage in going for a Scots university; just another year of fees to pay.

Dyst_uk's suggestion for looking at alternative courses which might permit transfer into a university program makes sense if there is some doubt about Kid 2's readiness for study in the UK. One of my current colleagues admits to having too good a time between 16 and 18 years old, resulting in disastrous A level results. S/he started out studying for HND in engineering and after obtaining good results transferred to a degree program (not sure whether it was at the end of the 1st or 2nd year) at a university with a highly rated engineering program. Colleague now has masters and PhD (passed with no corrections - rare in the subject, which is not engineering).

[dyst_uk]

The only reason I thought of those options was due to 2 of my younger siblings.  Three were badly affected by my parents divorce.  One went to uni and worked herself through her degree/MSc/PhD (one parent refused to fill in the income assessment).  Another had good enough A-levels, but couldn't face the cost of uni, so did an HND in business part-time, and is now converting it to a degree.  The second youngest had to retake his GCSEs, then did BTEC science. This enabled him to enter Biochemistry/Forensics (think he starts this week).