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[sockgumbee]

Folks have brought up a number of issues, here which make interesting reading.
I, though, for this forum am only interested at this point, on the use, or misuse of the term sweat lodge.

A number of people have brought up the argument here and in other threads that Native Americans are not the only peoples with sweat lodge ceremonies, such as this

Quote:
"The sweat lodge ceremony, older than recorded history, is practiced in some form by every culture in the world. Our ancient ancestors established the thermal bath in order to facilitate healing, purification and relaxation in their lives. "  http://www.thewildrose.net/sweat.html

I am of Finnish descent and I am completely offended that you are discounting my heritage, which has included sweat lodges since before recorded history.

Dr Syn, I believe that Finnish folks refer to their sweating building/practice as a sauna. Since I'm not talking about saunas, you have nothing to worry about.

As far as the source for your quote it's kind of hard to take the author seriously since hu claims Native American heritage yet does not give a particular tribe or group. Concerning traditions of humans inducing perspiration, a more accurate statement would be that 'many cultures have traditions of sweating, some of the terms for these are Finnish sauna, Mayan temezcal, etc.' The person erroneously says that all these are sweat lodge ceremonies. She's what we call a plastic shaman. No one is helped by conflating a specific term "sweat lodge" with the general cross cultural practice of humans getting in an enclosed heated space in order to cause proffuse sweating, to put it simplistically. (As an educator, generally I try discourage that kind of sloppy thinking.)

I must say that I agree that sweatlodges are not exclusively a Native American custom.
VP

Well VP, sweating is not exclusively Native American. Which I think is a good thing; most everyone could benefit from a good sweat. However sweat lodges are NA.

And while I agree with dyst_uk and other that some phrases will be offensive, sweat lodge is institutionalized now on CHE with a particular meaning. If the phrase came up randomly within the fora, I would not be so concerned or bothered. As it is I see it everytime I read the fora, even if I don't read the threads about it. I find that upsetting. What if everytime you read the fora, you saw something like "don't bother your pretty little head" or "has a p*nis and a brain!!"

LarryC, I know you know that making a polite statement of "this offends me" everytime I see the term would mean that I would not have time/energy to post to threads that actually interest me or to say sometime positive, which surprisingly enough I like to do.

Prytania, et al. This is not about the tradition of congratulating, celebrating, what-have-you forumites who have reached 1000 posts. I just hope/wish/implore that y'all call the virtual place where that happens something other than sweat lodge. It's that simple.

Contemporary, thanks for the cite/site. This is my point. I repeat, lot of y'all think that sweat lodge is a generic term, because -you- use it generically. But it is not a generic term, anymore than Coke means any kind of cola or soft drink, in every situation. And, unlike Coca-Cola, which probably gains something from having such a ubiquitous name, Native Americans who do sweat lodges, generally are not amused or flattered by misuse of the term.

[mickfed]

There are both discourses that constrain the production of knowledge, dissent and difference and some that enable 'new' knowledges and differences. The questions that arise within this framework, are to do with how some discourses maintain their authority, how some 'voices' get heard whilst others are silenced, who benefits and how.

The connation associated with the use of particular language is critical and the definition of the words themselves.  This current argument that “sweatlodge” on CHE might well be referring to a more global cultural experience – i.e., a European one, is both ludicrous and intellectually dishonest.   

This is not a question of definition nor of freedom of speech.  It is however a question of power, of authority of cultural hegemony and the willingness to engage in open dishonesty with regard to a practice condoned here by our peers through expnasively re-defining what we all knew was meant.

I stand embarrassed by this discourse of jabberwocky

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

That question has again been answered with the standard, unintellectual authority of the status quo.

[voxprincipalis]

This current argument that “sweatlodge” on CHE might well be referring to a more global cultural experience – i.e., a European one, is both ludicrous and intellectually dishonest. 

Uh, OK. I'm telling you that that's how I'm using it (though I admit I was thinking less of a modern European tradition and more of an ancient tradition shared by many peoples across the globe).

You say I'm lying.

Is that it?

Are you inside my brain?

I don't think so. I think it's just me and my multiple personalities -- excuse me, dissociated identities -- in there.

VP

[namazu]

You know, mickfed, I am perfectly willing to refrain from using the term "sweat lodge" on the forum (in the sense in which it has been applied) because I see no reason to cause people distress over something as silly as "the hall of 1000 posts".  I have no interest in showing disrespect for Native American traditions.  But you've making it awfully (and increasingly) hard to agree with you.

The connation associated with the use of particular language is critical and the definition of the words themselves.

I can agree with this.

This current argument that “sweatlodge” on CHE might well be referring to a more global cultural experience – i.e., a European one, is both ludicrous and intellectually dishonest.

This is where you lose me.  (And since when is Jordan or eastern Turkey or Siberia in Europe?)     

This is not a question of definition nor of freedom of speech.  It is however a question of power, of authority of cultural hegemony and the willingness to engage in open dishonesty with regard to a practice condoned here by our peers through expnasively re-defining what we all knew was meant.

We did?   I sure didn't!  To me sweat = perspiration, lodge = a place to hang out.  Thus, "sweat lodge" suggested a place to hang out while perspiring.  Now that I am aware that the term "sweat lodge" is used in a particular sense other than the generic one I had previously assumed, I am quite willing to be more careful in my use of language, and I would support calling the CHE place "the Lodge" and retiring the old term.  I am also curious about the Native American practices described by this term, and planning to learn more, because it is obvious that I am ignorant of this area. 

However, I think you're way off base in assuming malice, "intellectual dishonesty", or "hegemonic Eurocentrism" on the part of everyone who has replied to this thread or mentioned alternative understandings of what the term meant.   

[ablewasi]

This is not a question of definition nor of freedom of speech.  It is however a question of power, of authority of cultural hegemony and the willingness to engage in open dishonesty with regard to a practice condoned here by our peers through expnasively re-defining what we all knew was meant.

I hate long argumentative posts, so:

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everthing starts to look like a nail.

IOW

When you only have one intellectual frame of reference, everything starts to sound like a dissertation.


!a

[joey_fan]

I didn't realize there was such a back-history to this term. I'm learning a lot here.

[sockgumbee]

This is not a question of definition nor of freedom of speech.  It is however a question of power, of authority of cultural hegemony and the willingness to engage in open dishonesty with regard to a practice condoned here by our peers through expnasively re-defining what we all knew was meant.

I hate long argumentative posts, so:

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everthing starts to look like a nail.

IOW

When you only have one intellectual frame of reference, everything starts to sound like a dissertation.
!a

You know I think that part of the argument is exactly what Mickfed is talking about. Otherwise, why, when I posted about this the first time, would people attack me personally? Many of the replies said implicitly or explicitly that I was humorless, I didn't know what I was talking about, I was taking people's fun away, that real Indians knew differently, etc. And while many replies were not hostile, and a few were apologetic, some were along the lines of "well the sweat lodge is not what it used to be anyway" or "religious jokes are part of the fora experience, you'll just need to get used to it".

Still, I'm not one to attempt police people's brains since as VP shows this does depend on making gross assumptions. If I can get it, I'd be satisfied with a change in behavior, perhaps a change in thinking will follow.

[ablewasi]

This is not a question of definition nor of freedom of speech.  It is however a question of power, of authority of cultural hegemony and the willingness to engage in open dishonesty with regard to a practice condoned here by our peers through expnasively re-defining what we all knew was meant.

I hate long argumentative posts, so:

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everthing starts to look like a nail.

IOW

When you only have one intellectual frame of reference, everything starts to sound like a dissertation.
!a

You know I think that part of the argument is exactly what Mickfed is talking about. Otherwise, why, when I posted about this the first time, would people attack me personally? Many of the replies said implicitly or explicitly that I was humorless, I didn't know what I was talking about, I was taking people's fun away, that real Indians knew differently, etc. And while many replies were not hostile, and a few were apologetic, some were along the lines of "well the sweat lodge is not what it used to be anyway" or "religious jokes are part of the fora experience, you'll just need to get used to it".

Still, I'm not one to attempt police people's brains since as VP shows this does depend on making gross assumptions. If I can get it, I'd be satisfied with a change in behavior, perhaps a change in thinking will follow.

Gumbee,

This comment wasn't directed at you or even at mickfed, really.  I was commenting on the type of post that sounds like the poster is presenting a conference paper and has to get in all the right buz.

!a