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[ladygrey]

Please don't flame me - I am being sincere. I am also not a historian, so my comment may be completely off-base, for which I apologize in advance.

It seems to me that many of these arguments assume that majority culture, during times of slavery and now, is one homogeneous glob which has been persistently and viciously racist.

I have my great-grandfather's civil war diary which paints a different picture. He was from the far north and probably had never seen a slave. Nevertheless, he, like many others,  volunteered at age 33 to fight for "our devoted cause to bring the blessings of freedom to all in this great land...."  Men from ages 16-45 were in his regiment, mostly subsistence farmers. Many left wives and children and did not return, plunging their families into poverty. For them, fighting in the Civil War meant accepting all the consequences of war to end slavery because they were "convicted in [their] hearts of our nation's great fault". By the time my great-grandfather enlisted, he was aware of many dead or severely injured soldiers from his area, so there were no illusions about the cost of enlisting. Like many others though, I suppose, he was so enamored of the abolitionist cause that he did not consider what would happen once "freedom" was won, or at least he didn't write about it.  But I am not sure it is fair to judge the average soldiers on what they did not know or anticipate, given the small town experiences available to them.

Even though historians have made us aware of economic and political  motivations of many who were involved in the Civil War, I don't think these were the primary interests of many of the common soldiers who enlisted to further the abolitionist cause, at least not those mentioned in the diary.

None of this takes away from the real and terrible experiences of the slaves and the African-Americans in  subsequent years, but does it seem to anyone else that the sacrifices of those who suffered and died to end slavery have been removed from the discussion?     

[sockgumbee]

LadyGrey,

I guess the question might be do folks who fought against slavery, or their decedents, have some post traumatic syndrome of their own.

Regarding personal sacrifice, If you read Civil War diaries in general, it was a horrific time. In the South every family had at least one male killed--a father, son, brother. Women were left to manage farms, businesses etc. there also. As the war went on a lot of people lost heart for the cause being faced with so much loss. I can't image it was a good time for anyone in the North or South, although with the burning of Southern cities really tipped the scale.

The issue is not so much that the majority culture is homogeneous, but that on the one hand there racism is institutionalized so that even if you aren't racist you may unwittingly be supporting something discriminatory. Also, as I've mentioned before a lot of people have profited indirectly from the labor of enslaved people. A lot of Washington DC was built by these folks. So since our legislators use those buildings to make laws don't we all benefit? Whether we want to or not.
On the other hand, harsh practices that the enslaved used to survive their situation have been used in the generations following and they are maladaptive in less extreme situations. The article gives examples.

So while your point that even people who were not enslaved sacrificed and suffered because of slavery is important, it's a side issue to the question of whether there is post traumatic slave syndrome.

[ladygrey]

I see your point, theothergumbee, but I was reacting to some other posts in this thread.   I have not thought enough about PTSS.

My comment had to do with using a broad brush on any group.  I  wonder about the effects of focusing on the bad stuff in which many of us are implicated while ignoring the good that many people try to do.  Seems like it would add to a sense of utter helplessness and futility, and discourage people from stepping up to do what seems to be the right and nobler thing. 

[mended_drum]

In my mind slavery trauma > holocaust trauma. Here's why: 1) slavery lasted over 100 years, 2) A American culture was stripped, and, 3) no one addressed the issue of psychological disturbances resulting from trauma.

I'm new to this thread, so forgive me for butting in, but are you guys serious?  You're actually arguing about which trauma was worse?  For the individual slave or victim of the camps, how could it possibly matter?  The horrors involved are quite awful enough to be beyond any reasonable scale of pain.  I understand that you are trying to make points about the relative status of jews (American jews?) and African Americans today, but doing so by measuring such atrocities is just, well, awful.

[captain_obvious]

Ladygrey, I assume you are reacting to my posts and the comments I made about Scheherezade not wanting to be made to feel guilty for slavery.  She based her innocence on the fact that her family didn't live in the United States before or during the Civil War.  You also make a claim of innocence and base it on your own family's personal history of fighting in the Union Army to abolish slavery.

I want to be clear here that I do not in any way intend to diminish your ancestor's very real sacrifices.  I also do not think for even a second that all white people in the United States at that time were racists (or that all white people today are racists).  I do think, however, that the institutional structures of the United States are inherently racist and have been since before the founding of the country.  And this was/is true no matter what part of the country you live(d) in  None of us, no matter how pure our abolitionist lineage, can escape that essential fact.  I think this is what you are referring to as arguments that "assume that majority culture, during times of slavery and now, is one homogeneous glob which has been persistently and viciously racist."  I don't think all white individuals in the United States are or were racist, but I do think that the structures of American government and society include a heavy dose of institutional/structural racism.

[captain_obvious]

Also, Grinnellns, I completely agree with you.

[nardo]

Also, Grinnellns, I completely agree with you.

Actually, the entire constitutional design is in part a nod to ducking the slavery question.

Southern society was a slave society, not a society with slaves.  You cannot pull at the threads of slavery and racism ina society and still have the same society.

[captain_obvious]

Nardo, you're quite correct, and I'm not sure how your comment here is connected in any way to my agreement with Grinellns.  In case it wasn't clear, I agree with Grinellns that any attempt to make a value judgment about the relative "badness" of slavery versus the Holocaust is both pointless and grotesque.

[ladygrey]

 

Ladygrey, I assume you are reacting to my posts [...]
I want to be clear here that I do not think for even a second that all white people in the United States at that time were racists (or that all white people today are racists).  I do think, however, that the institutional structures of the United States are inherently racist and have been since before the founding of the country. I don't think all white individuals in the United States are or were racist, but I do think that the structures of American government and society include a heavy dose of institutional/structural racism.

Thanks, Captain.  This is very informative, and a good argument for teaching the liberal arts and sharing information on forums like this, if anyone needs one. Someone like me who has spent many years in another field might not otherwise be shown this point of view. 

[nardo]

Nardo, you're quite correct, and I'm not sure how your comment here is connected in any way to my agreement with Grinellns.  In case it wasn't clear, I agree with Grinellns that any attempt to make a value judgment about the relative "badness" of slavery versus the Holocaust is both pointless and grotesque.

That is absolutely correct.  It is like listening to two old people sitting around, trying to figure out who is falling apart faster.

[beacon1]

Nardo, you're quite correct, and I'm not sure how your comment here is connected in any way to my agreement with Grinellns.  In case it wasn't clear, I agree with Grinellns that any attempt to make a value judgment about the relative "badness" of slavery versus the Holocaust is both pointless and grotesque.

I think the comparison of the Holocaust to slavery is valid if the discussion is about trauma and not morality (reflecting on the original thread). There are variables that can make a traumatic response worsen - namely, time, duration, and kind of exposure. PTSS suggest that the type, kind, and duration of traumatic exposure common to slavery produced a cycle of re-victimization (within culture) that is present even today. This, coupled with racism (external factors), has caused sociological problems within African American culture (or so the article reports).

 

[acrimone]

Quoth the Scavenger Oracle:

"They are too close --
There needs be space,
Between the infant and the invaders.
Put it in.

Then go buy off your academic sins,
And purchase redemption,
While you discuss Chronicle articles."