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[larryc]

We have an absolute obligation to make sure that our prospective grad students have a clear understanding of the job market. We have no right at all to tell intellectually capable young people that they may not pursue a graduate degree because we don't like the odds of them getting a teaching job at the end of it.

It is a recipe for tragedy, isn't it?

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Maybe you do not consider this is not important in your field, but I certainly do for miine.

Though correct English and spelling is not properly taught in my field, evidently. Sorry. - DvF

[copper]

We have an absolute obligation to make sure that our prospective grad students have a clear understanding of the job market. We have no right at all to tell intellectually capable young people that they may not pursue a graduate degree because we don't like the odds of them getting a teaching job at the end of it.

It is a recipe for tragedy, isn't it?

I agree completely with LarryC, but there's another problem.  I don't have a clear understanding of what the job market will be like 8 years hence (Ph.D + post doc time); my Ph.D. advisor didn't know what it would be now when I started.  And biology, at least, shifts radically in a short period of time.  By the time I finished my post-doc, virtually every job ad in my branch of bio emphasized wanting someone whose research involved genomics.  At the time I defended my Ph.D. proposal, genomics didn't yet exist as a field of inquiry.

It's hard to impart an understanding that everything shifts, and every substantial decision you make could significantly affect your employability-- but you won't know the consequences of those decisions for years.

[larryc]

Good point, Copper. We historians enjoy the certainty of knowing that job market will be terrible to the end of time!

[csguy]

Good point copper. Also applies to a lot of "hot" undergraduate jobs.

Some fields are cyclic (engineering tends to be) others are fairly steady (accounting) but you never know.

Best to inherit wealth.

[malcha]

Good point copper. Also applies to a lot of "hot" undergraduate jobs.

Some fields are cyclic (engineering tends to be) others are fairly steady (accounting) but you never know.

Best to inherit wealth.

Or maybe marry it.

[infopri]

Good point copper. Also applies to a lot of "hot" undergraduate jobs.

Some fields are cyclic (engineering tends to be) others are fairly steady (accounting) but you never know.

Best to inherit wealth.

Or maybe marry it.

Dating it can work.  Just ask ellenm.

[yellowtractor]

Good point copper. Also applies to a lot of "hot" undergraduate jobs.

Some fields are cyclic (engineering tends to be) others are fairly steady (accounting) but you never know.

Best to inherit wealth.

Or maybe marry it.

Dating it can work.  Just ask ellenm.

NO.  NO.  DO NOT GO THERE.  Back up, do not pass go, do not collect $200.  Move along, folks.  Nothing here to see.

[bewildered]

The lie is, of course, that the student is virtually guaranteed a job.

But if the student is as smart as me, then they can certainly compete for a job similar to the job I got.  After all, in my field in the year I finished my PhD it was Decreed By God and the MLA and the Market that no one would get a job.  But SOMEONE had to get the job.  As long as the student knows the odds are against them, what's the problem with their going to grad school to try to get the job?  Me, I went to grad school at age 21-- what the hell else was I going to do?  I finished at 26; if I hadn't gotten a job, would I have been worse off with a PhD in the humanities than with 5 years experience working at Waldenbooks?

Barring a collapse in the university system, there will for many years be new jobs, and more PhD recipients than jobs. Some will get them, some won't.  To those who do, salut.  To those who don't, the good news is there are great opportunities to earn more money than those who beat you out for the job.

[jonesey]

Me, I went to grad school at age 21-- what the hell else was I going to do?

Uh, get a job, like the rest of the college graduates?

...if I hadn't gotten a job, would I have been worse off with a PhD in the humanities than with 5 years experience working at Waldenbooks?

So, the best you would have gotten with your BA/BS was a job at Waldenbooks?  This speaks more about you than the job market.  The worst that could happen is you have your PhD, no job, and $85-120,000 in student loan debt.  Remember, there are a lot of graduate students who don't get any funding/grants/tuition assistance.  Those folks have no job, bad prospects, and gigantic student loans.  Those are the people I'm concerned about.  If you got full funding for your PhD, then I could care less if you get a job; you don't have any debt.  You can go work anywhere you want.  But those students who pushed on for their MS/MFA/MA/PhD and paid for it on their own dime...they've got giant debts (about $1,000/month if they're on the 10 year repayment plan) and no prospects.  These are the people I'm concerned about.  These are the people who need to know just how bad the market is.

Barring a collapse in the university system, there will for many years be new jobs, and more PhD recipients than jobs. Some will get them, some won't.  To those who do, salut.  To those who don't, the good news is there are great opportunities to earn more money than those who beat you out for the job.
[/quote]

[csguy]

Me, I went to grad school at age 21-- what the hell else was I going to do?

Uh, get a job, like the rest of the college graduates?

...if I hadn't gotten a job, would I have been worse off with a PhD in the humanities than with 5 years experience working at Waldenbooks?

So, the best you would have gotten with your BA/BS was a job at Waldenbooks?  This speaks more about you than the job market.  The worst that could happen is you have your PhD, no job, and $85-120,000 in student loan debt.  Remember, there are a lot of graduate students who don't get any funding/grants/tuition assistance.  Those folks have no job, bad prospects, and gigantic student loans.  Those are the people I'm concerned about.  If you got full funding for your PhD, then I could care less if you get a job; you don't have any debt.  You can go work anywhere you want.  But those students who pushed on for their MS/MFA/MA/PhD and paid for it on their own dime...they've got giant debts (about $1,000/month if they're on the 10 year repayment plan) and no prospects.  These are the people I'm concerned about.  These are the people who need to know just how bad the market is.

Absolutely. I managed to finish my undergrad with only a small amount of debt and grad school didn't require any more debt.

If a student is incurring debt then said student might be well advised to think about the return on his/her investment. If the student is like me -- well it was an interesting way of spending a few years and if I'd ended up working in industry I probably wouldn't have lost too much (plus CS skills have value in the market although getting a PhD might be considered a poor economic decision).

[iomhaigh]

"Despite everything I know, I want you to go to graduate school. I can't help it; I have drunk the Kool-Aid. For all that's happened, I still believe in the value of the humanities and that some people should be teachers and scholars. And for that reason I can't be trusted completely."

This is the part of Benton's article that shocks me.  Do others think this way, too?  I believe in the value of a liberal arts education and in the humanities, but that doesn't mean that I want my students -- even my good ones -- to go to graduate school in my field.  I honestly don't expect most of my majors to even find or look for work in my field.  Some do, sure, and some dabble, and some go on to teach high school, but do we have to be so field-oriented/obsessed that we completely lose sight of the fact that we are teaching students skills to be used in their futures?  Those skills are transferable -- it is the critical thinking, research, and communication skills which matter in the long run.  Students should be getting these skills in any major.

Perhaps I've drunk different Kool-Aid.  Perhaps I know that my actual real-world field has worse job prospects than the academic market.  But still, that part just floored me. 

[bewildered]

Me, I went to grad school at age 21-- what the hell else was I going to do?

Uh, get a job, like the rest of the college graduates?

...if I hadn't gotten a job, would I have been worse off with a PhD in the humanities than with 5 years experience working at Waldenbooks?

So, the best you would have gotten with your BA/BS was a job at Waldenbooks?  This speaks more about you than the job market.  The worst that could happen is you have your PhD, no job, and $85-120,000 in student loan debt.  Remember, there are a lot of graduate students who don't get any funding/grants/tuition assistance.  Those folks have no job, bad prospects, and gigantic student loans.  Those are the people I'm concerned about.  If you got full funding for your PhD, then I could care less if you get a job; you don't have any debt.  You can go work anywhere you want.  But those students who pushed on for their MS/MFA/MA/PhD and paid for it on their own dime...they've got giant debts (about $1,000/month if they're on the 10 year repayment plan) and no prospects.  These are the people I'm concerned about.  These are the people who need to know just how bad the market is.

Barring a collapse in the university system, there will for many years be new jobs, and more PhD recipients than jobs. Some will get them, some won't.  To those who do, salut.  To those who don't, the good news is there are great opportunities to earn more money than those who beat you out for the job.

[/quote]

Pretty harsh line: "This speaks more about you than the job market."  I just gave one example, but since this is a pretty typical type of entry-level job for recent college grads of my social-class-of-origin, I'd say you're showing a pretty remarkable contempt for a wide range of undergrads, however much you may imagine you're directing it at me alone.  Hopefully you successfully hide this contempt from your own undergrads, or else are lucky enough to teach at an Ivy where you don't have to see (and smell) us working-class stiffs.

I'll own up to all of the following:  at age 21 I didn't have a clue what else to do with myself; I went to grad school mainly because of that and because I "enjoyed college"; I chose English only because it "seemed fun"; I wrote a dissertation only because it was either that or be kicked out of grad school-- and only later did I actually start enjoying writing; I revised my diss and published a book and several articles only because I enjoyed teaching and didn't want to lose my job; I changed jobs only because I was invited to and was offered a 6-figure salary and a lower teaching load for my troubles.  I'll further admit that I didn't actually decide I liked academia until around my 4th year on the tenure track.  Does this "speak more about [me] than the job market"? 

The majority of the people in my PhD class failed to get academic jobs; the majority were disappointed; I don't know a single one whose starting salary was as low as mine, or even close; the ones I know certainly had to use their imagination to "market" their English PhDs as relevant to the "real world"; and they all got better jobs with an English PhD than they possibly could have gotten with just a BA.  I'd like to think that if I had started out at $70k-90k as a management trainee for a major corporation, as my friends "Bob" and "Stan" and "Biff" and "Gerty" all did, that would have helped me dry my tears from not getting an academic job making $37k (which was my first salary).

In fact, THAT's what all English PhD applicants should be beaten over the head with:  they might be forced to go the "Bob" and "Stan" and "Biff" and "Gerty" route.  (Real people; but 3 of the 4 names have been changed-- "Bob" certainly wouldn't mind me using his real name).

[jonesey]

"Working class stiffs" funny.  Here's the deal.

At 18, I didn't know what to do with myself.  I joined the Marine Corps, went to a few places full of interesting people, some friendly, some not, and got out.  Went to a CC because I didn't study at all in high school and didn't care.  Got married, had kids, worked three jobs while attending the CC.  Was unable to go to State U because, alas, at this time (early 90's) most of the courses were offered during the day.  Night school/the internet were unheard of as State U expected its students to be 18-21 and straight out of high school.  So, I worked, and worked some more.  Divorced, still working multiple jobs, finally attending a private school that could accomodate my schedule at a ridiculous amount of tuition.  Was getting a business degree to "make money" but hated it.  Corporate job layed off about 10,000 people so I went back to majoring in English because I thought I'd like teaching HS students.  Went to grad school, got an MFA at a low-residency program because, again, must work, cannot go to grad school full time, have kids, responsibilities, etc.  So, no TA, no teaching experience, nada.  Knew NOTHING about higher ed or the job market at all as I was not a residential student and, well, they don't discuss these things in an MFA program.  After a year at school was told that if I wanted to teach I should have gone to a FT program.  Uh, duh, thanks for telling me now that I'm $10K into the program.  Finished, graduated, eventually left corporate job to teach at a for-profit school that didn't care about a lack of teaching experience. 

So, I have nothing but experience with working class stiffs.  I've always been one.  I've never been some kids whose parents paid for his college and spent four years partying and attending football games.  I've never just gone to college.  It was all at night, all while working, all while raising a family.  My issue with higher education is that, if you didn't attend college full time, and not work, and just went to school for 6-10 years FT, you aren't fit to be a prof.  It's elitism and snobbery at its worst, and it drives me crazy. 

I don't do research, I teach.  I work on my own book on the side, but what I do all day, and what I do very well, is teach.  I don't give my work to TAs, I don't have anyone else grade my papers or give my lectures; I do it.  All of it.  For decent pay, but nowhere near six figures (honestly, I don't know anyone in academics who make six figures unless he or she is the President; my Chair and Dean don't make six figures). 

I like what I do, and I'm very happy that I'm doing it.  I'll never teach at some uber-elite school, or, most likely, even a good State U with my academic background.  Oh well.  After reading about all of the BS professors put up with at the R1s and SLACs they teach at on this fora, I'm pretty happy where I am.  No BS, no committees, no strange Chairs or politics to deal with.  I just go to work, teach, and go home.  If an undergrad student read this site he or she would probably never go into academia; the CHE fora makes academic work sound like torture.  : )

I'm glad you stumbled into a six figure tt job with little to no difficulty, but I wouldn't brag about that around here.  There are folks that have been, literally, killing themselves for years for a gig like that.  To hear that you got one without even trying might send them over the edge.  : )