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[dolljepopp]

Liberty.  Free will and free choices. Evidently they want a large family, there are women who enjoy being pregnant, and last time I checked most academics wanted to protect reproductive rights.  THat also includes a right to breed and procreate to excess.

I'm with drstones on this one. The very idea creeps me out in an enormous way, but, barring proven abuse or something equally wrong, I'm pretty willing to let people make life decisions I do not understand and could not endorse.

[francie_]

Liberty.  Free will and free choices. Evidently they want a large family, there are women who enjoy being pregnant, and last time I checked most academics wanted to protect reproductive rights.  THat also includes a right to breed and procreate to excess.

I'm with drstones on this one. The very idea creeps me out in an enormous way, but, barring proven abuse or something equally wrong, I'm pretty willing to let people make life decisions I do not understand and could not endorse.

Gah!  I said as much on page one of the thread.

But apparently, some academics here on the forum endorse the reproductive rights only for prochoice vegan atheists for those whose politics coincide with their own.

[dr_stones]

Francie, I will gladly cede to you original conception of the response. :)

[francie_]

Francie, I will gladly cede to you original conception of the response. :)

*snort*  Oh, I do so love your wit, DrStones!

FTR, the Duggars are not the first very large family to allow the media into their lives.  I seem to recall a documentary from the 70s or 80s about a family in Washington State.  I don't think the parents had any particular political or religious agenda, but I believe the father worked for Boeing.  Gah!  The military/industrial complex!  Nooooooo!

[wild_rose]

The family in question is going to be on the Today Show this moring (future tense for those of us on the west coast; past tense for those in the east.)

I'll let you know my response a bit later. ;-)

[crazybatlady]

But apparently, some academics here on the forum endorse the reproductive rights only for prochoice vegan atheists for those whose politics coincide with their own.

That's pretty funny, Francie. I suspect that there are some exceptions. No, I know there are some exceptions.

I feel just fine looking askance at this family, because I would look askance at them anyway. It's not like I'm in a position to restrict their rights to reproduce (and nor would I want to, really), but they certainly are out to get folks like me. Those arrows are pointed right at my little family.

cbl

[wild_rose]

I just watched this rather brief interview with the family, on the Today Show.

Superficially:

• I agree, they are a cute couple, but the mom needs to lose the mullet
• The family seems happy. The kids seem happy. I list this under "superficial" because it can be hard to know if they are truly happy unless you can get them one on one over a long period of time.

Based on my personal experience -- my fieldwork subjects were teens --  I think if someone could establish rapport with the two oldest teens, we could find out of they really are as blissful as they appear to be. Frankly, I doubt they are. The fact that they are homeschooled might help, because this denies them the opportunity to compare their rather unusual life situation with those of their peers. I think if they had access to kids their own age, they might wish for a "normal" life - like most of us do.

We won't know until these kids grow up and start raising families of their own, whether living in a small city in which all of the residents are your sibilings is good for one's mental health or not.

IMHO

[_touchedbyanoodle_]

Francie, I will gladly cede to you original conception of the response. :)

*snort*  Oh, I do so love your wit, DrStones!

Realfrancie and DrStones,

Not one single poster has suggested restricting the number of children they may produce. Stop putting words in people's mouths. You are lauding yourselves over a point that is responding to something you made up.

[scheherazade]

Based on my personal experience -- my fieldwork subjects were teens --  I think if someone could establish rapport with the two oldest teens, we could find out of they really are as blissful as they appear to be. Frankly, I doubt they are.

Are any teens blissful?  Not in my experience.

The fact that they are homeschooled might help, because this denies them the opportunity to compare their rather unusual life situation with those of their peers. I think if they had access to kids their own age, they might wish for a "normal" life - like most of us do.

Homeschooling doesn't usually mean isolation.  Most homeschooled kids actively take part in their communities and organizations.

I agreed early with realfrancie, and now drstones.  Reproductive freedom has to go both ways.

[kitmonk]

Of course reproductive freedom has to go both ways.  I don't see anybody on this thread advocating restrictions on the number of children people are allowed to bring into the world.  We are not in China.

But just because people have the right to do something doesn't mean I have to think it's responsible, ethical, or really even a good idea.  I accept that there will always be people who oppose the way I live my life.  That's their right, and as long as they stay out of my way and don't try to legally impose their views on my life, I don't much care what they think.  Liberty does not mean never having to hear anyone disagree with you or question your judgement.  Nor, contrary to what several posters seem to believe, does voicing outrage, opposition, or simple questioning make any of us here enemies of liberty and the American way.

Unfortunately, I very much doubt that the Duggars take such a hands-off approach to issues like same-sex marriage or adoption.  I'm not trying to legislate their lives or prevent them from having more children, but they would undoubtedly (given what we know they believe from their own interviews and writing ) not extend me the same courtesy or measure of liberty.

So yeah.  I'm pretty confident saying both that they can have as many kids as they damn well please and that I think it's a rotten idea.

[zoelouise]

I don't see anybody on this thread advocating restrictions on the number of children people are allowed to bring into the world.  We are not in China.

But just because people have the right to do something doesn't mean I have to think it's responsible, ethical, or really even a good idea.  I accept that there will always be people who oppose the way I live my life.  That's their right, and as long as they stay out of my way and don't try to legally impose their views on my life, I don't much care what they think.  Liberty does not mean never having to hear anyone disagree with you or question your judgement.  Nor, contrary to what several posters seem to believe, does voicing outrage, opposition, or simple questioning make any of us here enemies of liberty and the American way.

So yeah.  I'm pretty confident saying both that they can have as many kids as they damn well please and that I think it's a rotten idea.

Right on.

[anthroid]

I don't see anybody on this thread advocating restrictions on the number of children people are allowed to bring into the world.  We are not in China.

But just because people have the right to do something doesn't mean I have to think it's responsible, ethical, or really even a good idea.  I accept that there will always be people who oppose the way I live my life.  That's their right, and as long as they stay out of my way and don't try to legally impose their views on my life, I don't much care what they think.  Liberty does not mean never having to hear anyone disagree with you or question your judgement.  Nor, contrary to what several posters seem to believe, does voicing outrage, opposition, or simple questioning make any of us here enemies of liberty and the American way.

So yeah.  I'm pretty confident saying both that they can have as many kids as they damn well please and that I think it's a rotten idea.

Right on.

I completely agree.  And while I am avidly pro-choice, I know, unlike Francie and drstones, I guess, that choice, like free speech, is never completely unfettered.  Choices have consequences, and one of the consequences for the Duggars is that some of us judge their choices to be irresponsible.  No one is suggesting that their children be taken away or that they are forcibly sterilized.  I am suggesting, however, that they have made some terrible choices based on, from what I can tell, an absolutely revolting personal religious viewpoint.  Judgmental?  You bet.  A call to action?  Nope.  Just as I would rather harshly judge someone who had 17 abortions, I am judging the Duggars harshly.  I get to.  And I will judge similarly stupid choices as I wish.

[slac_vap]

Well, at least the last few posts have made clear exactly what this thread is.  It is a chance for a group of anonymous strangers to judge a family.  Six pages of judgment.  Any of our families could be the subject of this thread, and the criticism weighed would likely be no less harsh.

[yellowtractor]

I think that's a little unfair, SLAC_VAP.  I was surprised by the amount of vitriol on this thread, yes, and personally I back the Duggars' right to choose their family size.  However, the Duggars are not like "any of our families."  The Duggars have chosen, as I understand it, to take their family public in a rather astonishing way.  This invites debate and criticism.

The particular debate and criticism on this thread has certainly been revealing, in terms of what our fellow forumites might think of our family choices, or anybody's.  But I don't think it's at all inappropriate for us, or for anyone within reach of the media to which the Duggars have apparently aspired, to consider and "judge" them.  They have chosen to make themselves public figures (like Madonna, or Bush), and this sort of exchange--including this sort of "judgment"--follows from that critical fact.

[tenured_feminist]

I'd have to be pretty concerned about the health of a woman who had endured 17 full-term pregnancies. Probably more damaging in the long run than having 17 abortions, though of course all would depend on the conditions for either. But I also worry about lots of people who make choices that I recognize as legitimate but believe are unwise, like smoking, drinking to excess, starving to achieve unrealistic body proportions, etc.

And I find it useful to be aware of the extent to which "free choice" is culturally or relationally driven. Context is everything, of course, but I would imagine that Mrs. Duggar is facing far more cultural pressure from her embedding in the Quiverfull community to continue producing children than the average flag-burner is facing to fire up the Zippo. But I don't know her and have never watched or read much of the coverage of this family, so I couldn't be sure.