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[daniel_von_flanagan]

The time was when the BEST students went to a SLAC, today, the very best end up at the state land grant or a large private school. 

That doesn't mean the SLACs aren't getting very good students, but the small ones do not have the facilities of the large schools and cannot teach the kinds of things required for technological fields. 

The best SLACs - of which Antioch once was one - are not going anywhere.  They are financially comfortable, still draw from the same student pool that Harvard and Cal Tech do, and if anything have more rather than fewer applications now for every spot than they did 20 years ago.  They are also perfectly adequate for preparing students for graduate school in tech fields; undergraduates shouldn't be fiddling around with this week's flash-in-the-pan lab gadgets when they should be getting a solid foundation in the basics (math, physics, cemistry), none of which require especially specialized facilities.  The new science buildings that these colleges have been building are there mainly to impress the parents who are taking their 17-year-olds on the college tour.

The large state schools tend not to get many private donations - not at the level of their private counterparts - and when they do the legislatures like to trim the general-fund contribution proportionately.

I'm in a tech field at a large state R1, and while I think we offer an outstanding education for our students, I do not think we are structurally any better off than a Swarthmore, Williams, or Reed in this respect. - DvF

[dogvomit]

The time was when the BEST students went to a SLAC, today, the very best end up at the state land grant or a large private school. 

That doesn't mean the SLACs aren't getting very good students, but the small ones do not have the facilities of the large schools and cannot teach the kinds of things required for technological fields. 

The best SLACs - of which Antioch once was one - are not going anywhere. 

If the best SLACs are not going anywhere, and Antioch was one of these....
Didn't Antioch go somewhere?  Didn't it have difficulty attracting students?

The small SLACs really are a dying breed, how many closed this year?  Now, how many large schools of any type closed?

[dogvomit]

The time was when the BEST students went to a SLAC, today, the very best end up at the state land grant or a large private school. 

That doesn't mean the SLACs aren't getting very good students, but the small ones do not have the facilities of the large schools and cannot teach the kinds of things required for technological fields. 

The best SLACs - of which Antioch once was one - are not going anywhere.  They are financially comfortable, still draw from the same student pool that Harvard and Cal Tech do, and if anything have more rather than fewer applications now for every spot than they did 20 years ago.  They are also perfectly adequate for preparing students for graduate school in tech fields; undergraduates shouldn't be fiddling around with this week's flash-in-the-pan lab gadgets when they should be getting a solid foundation in the basics (math, physics, cemistry), none of which require especially specialized facilities.  The new science buildings that these colleges have been building are there mainly to impress the parents who are taking their 17-year-olds on the college tour.

The large state schools tend not to get many private donations - not at the level of their private counterparts - and when they do the legislatures like to trim the general-fund contribution proportionately.

I'm in a tech field at a large state R1, and while I think we offer an outstanding education for our students, I do not think we are structurally any better off than a Swarthmore, Williams, or Reed in this respect. - DvF

The landgrant in my state gets better than 50% of all operating funds from non-state, private resources.  In fact, a recent donation to this school was larger than the entire operating budget at my current institution!  The non-land grant large state U down the road is somewhere in the 40% level. 

I'm not convinced.

[csguy]

The time was when the BEST students went to a SLAC, today, the very best end up at the state land grant or a large private school. 

That doesn't mean the SLACs aren't getting very good students, but the small ones do not have the facilities of the large schools and cannot teach the kinds of things required for technological fields. 

The best SLACs - of which Antioch once was one - are not going anywhere. 

If the best SLACs are not going anywhere, and Antioch was one of these....
Didn't Antioch go somewhere?  Didn't it have difficulty attracting students?

The small SLACs really are a dying breed, how many closed this year?  Now, how many large schools of any type closed?

The key word is Antioch once was one.

I do think there is a point at which a school will no longer be viable. My guesstimates for viability would be $50 million plus endowment, no significant liabilities (no antique science building), 1500+ students. Note these are minimums. $500 million endowment and 3,000 students would be a lot more comfortable.

Other things that would help are professional programs such as Business, Education, med tech fields (though then it's not really a SLAC and Antioch screwed this up), being in a fair size community (especially if there's not much competition) and effective marketing and fund raising. It can also help to have strong religious ties (if you are an active member of church X then university Y is the school of choice).

If a school lets facilities run down, does not present a positive campus environment, and fails at fund raising (all problems with Antioch) it may well end up going down the tubes.

Big schools have more momentum and (usually) more money. State schools are different.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

The time was when the BEST students went to a SLAC, today, the very best end up at the state land grant or a large private school. 

That doesn't mean the SLACs aren't getting very good students, but the small ones do not have the facilities of the large schools and cannot teach the kinds of things required for technological fields. 

The best SLACs - of which Antioch once was one - are not going anywhere. 

If the best SLACs are not going anywhere, and Antioch was one of these....
Didn't Antioch go somewhere?  Didn't it have difficulty attracting students?

Sorry, you can't argue: "Small colleges are not viable, therefore Antioch was not viable; evidence that small college are not viable is that Antiloch was not viable."

The reason that Antioch is in trouble has nothing to do with the purported inability of quality small colleges to provide tech facilities. - DvF

[daniel_von_flanagan]

The landgrant in my state gets better than 50% of all operating funds from non-state, private resources.  In fact, a recent donation to this school was larger than the entire operating budget at my current institution!

Much of this is usually non-G-funds (like grants) or donations earmarked for special purposes.  UW-Madison, which has a better-than-average record of private donations, had a budget crisis a few years back because of legislative cutbacks (see http://www.news.wisc.edu/7257) even though on paper the state contribution is a minority of the funding. 

Only 3 of the top 10 University endowments are for public universities (Texas, Texas A&M, and California), whereas none of the 10 largest universities are private.  I don't have my copy of the Almanac of Higher Ed at hand today, but I am fairly sure that in on endowment per pupil, you'd have to go fairly far down the list to find any public universities. - DvF

[aandsdean]

The landgrant in my state gets better than 50% of all operating funds from non-state, private resources.  In fact, a recent donation to this school was larger than the entire operating budget at my current institution!

Much of this is usually non-G-funds (like grants) or donations earmarked for special purposes.  UW-Madison, which has a better-than-average record of private donations, had a budget crisis a few years back because of legislative cutbacks (see http://www.news.wisc.edu/7257) even though on paper the state contribution is a minority of the funding. 

Only 3 of the top 10 University endowments are for public universities (Texas, Texas A&M, and California), whereas none of the 10 largest universities are private.  I don't have my copy of the Almanac of Higher Ed at hand today, but I am fairly sure that in on endowment per pupil, you'd have to go fairly far down the list to find any public universities. - DvF

UVa has a very high endowment (around $4 billion, bigger than Duke's) with a total of about 18,000 students.  Texas, A&M, and California are all SYSTEM endowments (maybe Cal's isn't--I too don't have the list in front of me), so for instance UT's endowment is for well over 100,000 students, as, probably, is A&M's.

And UVa is getting close to being private--they get fewer dollars (literal numbers of dollars) from the "Commonwealth" of Virginia than they did when I was a grad student there 20 years ago.

None of these compare to Harvard's $30+ billion or Yale's +/-$20 billion, in both cases for well fewer than 10,000 students.

That $50 million endowment/1,500 student figure is pretty good.  I read somewhere (I really wish I remembered where, as it was a great article) that 1,200 is about the make/break point for a small college in terms of breadth of programs, tuition income, and so on.  You can get by with fewer, but it gets increasingly challenging.

By the way, the richest SLAC's (Grinnell, Swarthmore, Pomona, etc.) have over $1 million in endowment per student.  They're fine.  A school with less money (say $75 million) needs to be pretty smart to manage its budget, but despite what frogman says, there are a lot of them that are going to be just fine. 

Particularly, as state governments continue to abrogate their funding responsibilities for higher education, if small privates can control costs they can compete very well.  In particular, out-of-state tuition at UVa and William and Mary is well up in the range that it is for an array of excellent private colleges, and the private colleges are a lot more likely to pony up discount dollars and other scholarship money than the publics are, as the publics are now quite overtly milking out-of-state students to make up budget shortfalls that have come from state cuts. 

Also, political pressure in the states is likely to keep publics out of bidding wars for strong out-of-state students except at the very most extreme ends of quality and demographic interest.  There's a reason why at schools like UVa and W&M the out-of-state students have higher academic qualifications than the in-state students, though at schools like that no one's really a slouch.

The biggest challenge to small privates is going to be schools like those in COPLAC--Truman State, New College of Florida, Evergreen, Minnesota-Morris, Georgia College & State University, Mary Washington, Montevallo, etc.  These schools are explicitly gunning for liberal arts students and they are challenging the kinds of schools frogman is convinced are dying, sometimes with some significant success. 

It's a very complex market. 

[dogvomit]

I just want to thank everyone for the great information they have been contributing. 

[aandsdean]

I just want to thank everyone for the great information they have been contributing. 

This stuff is interesting and important to me (obviously!).  Thanks for keeping the thread productive....

The SLAC is a uniquely American institution, and how they move through their current evolution is a complex and important question for anyone who cares about higher ed.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

The SLAC is a uniquely American institution, and how they move through their current evolution is a complex and important question for anyone who cares about higher ed.

The inhomogeneity of the US higher education establishment is a big part of its strength, and why it has become the envy of the rest of the world.  Without the idea that there should be a place for nearly anyone to go to school, we wouldn't have so many jobs for people like Zafir, who thinks this system is so inferior to his home system (which would never employ him).  It is a bit like biodiversity - the way to maintain an enduring agricultural base is to have many crops, and not fall prey to the temptation to focus on the one most profitable one. - DvF

[dogvomit]

I am wondering if the definition of an SLAC is more relative than absolute. 

Afterall, what is small. 

20 yrs ago 500 was a small school, today, I would argue that 3,500 is small.

Maybe in 30 yrs from now 10K will be small!

Currently, I believe 10K would be an average sized university when looking across the nation. 

Will SLACs grow in size with the times? 

[jonesey]

The biggest challenge to small privates is going to be schools like those in COPLAC--Truman State, New College of Florida, Evergreen, Minnesota-Morris, Georgia College & State University, Mary Washington, Montevallo, etc.  These schools are explicitly gunning for liberal arts students and they are challenging the kinds of schools frogman is convinced are dying, sometimes with some significant success.

FWIW, New College of Florida (just down the street from me) has about a $35 million dollar endowment of its student body...of 735. 

[kaysixteen]

There is a market for small-sized elite  SLACs, and those that can afford to remain that way will likely be able and eager to do so.

[daurousseau]

Will SLACs grow in size with the times? 

Let's hope not. The small liberal arts college excels in enabling intense intellectual exchange and growth. I got much more out of one year in a college of 35 students than in any other year before or since.

[csguy]

I'd guess they'll grow but not all that rapidly. I recollect reading about a number of schools that were planning to grow by 500 students or so (from 1500 to 2000).

Schools can be bitten by the growth bug but they really do change character as they change size. There's a difference between universities with 1,000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 students.

I can't think of more than one or so colleges with under 100 student (there's one in DFW somewhere I think).