next »

[jeannekay]

I would like to share an interview/debate I had with Mr Keyes last December about an article that he had published in the Yellow Springs News that presented a similar view of Antioch College as that in his recent article in the Chronicle. As much as I was shocked by Mr Keyes diagnosis at the time; I am even more so now, as the news of Antioch's closing provides a justification for a view that does not represent that of the majority of the Antioch College community-- and which is not, in my opinion, accurate in the least.

The interview was published in The Antioch Record, in December 2006.



Not my Antioch  
Debate with author of letter “End Antioch’s Toxic Culture” in Yellow
Springs News

About one month ago, I was leaning over the library counter when my eyes
fell on a newspaper article glued in front of me: “End Antioch’s toxic
culture” said the headline. I read, and my mouth fell open as I learned
that Antioch was unsafe, that its soul was endangered and that we suffered
from a “hostile, intimidating, aggressively vulgar campus environment”. At
that point, not only my mouth was open but I was jumping up and down,
waving my arms around and exclaiming “This is not Antioch! And this man is
an alumnus? And he lives in Yellow Springs? How could he be so mistaken
about what’s going on here?”
Two weeks later I was in the Emporium meeting the author, Ralph Keyes,
Antioch alumnus ‘67 to tell him from my own first-year student perspective
that, no, my Antioch is not toxic, corrosive or anything like that. Quite
the opposite, actually; it’s one of the few places in the world where I
have found such kindness, respect, honesty and open-mindedness in people.
It is one of the places where I feel the safest.
A two-hour discussion ensued, here is, in a nutshell, how it went:

Jeanne: In your October 19th article you write: “Steve Lawry strikes me as
just what Antioch needs at this point in its history”, but also “If I were
an Antioch student today, I’d probably be lining up to sign a petition
denouncing his attempts to temper the atmosphere”. Isn’t there a
contradiction there?
Ralph:  When I was a student, I was your age, and I think you have a
certain perspective at that age, a very strong perspective, particularly
if you come to Antioch; you want freedom; one of the main reasons you come
to Antioch is because of maximum freedom, and when the president says
“wait, there are these limits…”, if I were a student I would probably be
upset. But I’m not 18 years old, I’m 61 and in forty years time I’ve
learned that it’s not necessarily a good thing to have maximum freedom.
Jeanne: So you’re saying that we’re not capable yet of knowing what is
good for us?
Ralph: In a sense, yes. I don’t think I knew when I was your age. When you
come to college you come out of family where you have restrictions, high
school where you have restrictions. Then you come to Antioch and you’re
free: no more restrictions.
Jeanne: But some people choose to go to other colleges where there are
restrictions; students who come to Antioch tend to come here because they
value total freedom.
Ralph: Yes. But how many? You see, Antioch’s enrollment, as I understand
it is now just over 300. In order for Antioch to balance its budget it
needs probably three times that number. So I think the Antioch that is now
is not attractive enough to students to be sustainable. And believe me,
Antioch is very important to me.
Jeanne: And you think that our ‘toxic culture’ is the reason for our low
retention rate?
Ralph: I think it’s a factor.
Jeanne: How would you define ‘toxic culture’?
Ralph: I don’t have a lot of direct contact with the students, but I’m
astonished by some of the things I read in the Record. When people find it
so important to call people out: “I think your values are bad, so I’m
calling you out”, I think it gets to a point where it’s really negative.
There is a certain number of people who like that, who can survive in that
environment. But I think if Antioch wants to get a bigger enrollment, it
needs to have a culture in which the students don’t call each other out
all the time.
Jeanne: In my three months here, I’ve never witnessed a situation in which
we’ve been aggressive or judgmental to conservative people. I understand
that Antioch may not be for everyone. It’s a place where you’re going to
be challenged, but you’re challenged in diplomatic and respectful ways. I
find myself having discussions with people from both sides of the
political spectrum. But some people can’t take it because they want to be
in an environment where they don’t have to argue, debate and reconsider
their views all the time.
Ralph: Is that ok? Is Antioch a place that has room for people like that?
Jeanne: I don’t think so.  If you come here you have to be able to
question everything that you believe in; I think it’s a good thing, it’s
educational.
Ralph: When I was a student, there was a slogan that was almost a cliché,
“reevaluate your basic assumptions in the light of new evidence”, which is
similar to what you’re saying. I felt that was genuine and I liked that;
we were willing to defend our views and to consider new evidence. But
reconsidering my views wouldn’t necessarily mean that I would end up on
the left. I might end up on the right, I might end up in the middle, I
might end up nowhere. It’s part of the reconsideration. In the political
environment today at Antioch, there’s the assumption that if you
reconsider your views you’ll end up further to the left; it’s not an open
reconsideration. I think of myself as left but I didn’t go to Antioch
because it was a ’left’ community, I went to Antioch because it was a
community of independent thinkers who create their own educational path.
When I was a student, the invitation to come to Antioch was “Do you want
to think for yourself?” and now it’s shifted to “Do you want to change the
world?” ; those are two different things. It concerns me that Antioch sees itself as a
‘left’ community; because it makes it difficult for students who don’t see
themselves as left to want to come here. That’s one reason we’re so small.
Jeanne: It’s more of a spontaneous situation than something planned;
‘left’ people tend to come to Antioch. Our honor code has the words
‘social justice’ in it. To me, it’s more of an issue of whether we accept
those whose views differ from ours and I think we do. Doesn’t every
college in the US have some kind of political orientation? Why couldn’t we
have a political identity and still bring new students in?
Ralph: Because you cannot pay your bills, among other things.
Jeanne: I don’t think our “toxic culture” is the reason for our low
retention rate; the first years I’ve talked to that are planning to
transfer have other motives: small student body, not being able to major
in the field they’re interested in, departments closing, outdated library
books. I haven’t heard many people saying “I’m transferring because I’m
feeling oppressed by Antioch’s culture”
Ralph: If I visited Antioch as it is now, I wouldn’t dream of sending my
child here, because it’s - at least on the surface- such a toxic
environment. When I say  “Would my kid be safe here?”, I don’t just mean
in a physical way -would they overdose- but  for example, would they be
pressured to smoke? I see a tremendous number of students smoking. And it
doesn’t look to me like an emotionally healthy environment, not one where
I’d feel comfortable.
Jeanne: What about the people who, like me, came to Antioch because it’s
radical?
Ralph: At the moment, someone is reaching into their pocket to pay for
your radical environment. It is not sustainable.
Jeanne: I think we’re all conscious that Antioch needs more students. No
one is denying that.
Ralph: But are you prepared to make the necessary sacrifices in order to
get more students? To change your culture and lifestyles to become a more
welcoming environment? Antioch has become a very ingrown place which is
not welcoming to those who don’t ‘belong’. That includes townspeople,
alumni and parents. This is not healthy.
Jeanne: But you’re saying that if someone is uncomfortable with our
‘lifestyles’ then it’s up to us to change our lifestyles, what we’re
saying is they have to change their vision of us.
Ralph: I’ve been forty years in the world since I’ve left Antioch and I’ve
learned how to be circumspect about what’s possible and what isn’t and I
think being circumspect in this case means understanding that most 18
year-olds will feel uncomfortable in a place like Antioch.
Jeanne: Are you saying that we should hide our identity to make us more
appealing parents and prospective students?
Ralph: I’m saying you should broaden your identity. What has happened
since Antioch has become such a small community is that you’ve become like
an “endangered species”. I don’t think you should flaunt everything you
believe in your newspaper, flyers, because some students are uncomfortable
with that kind of extreme standpoints. I think that would be good for the
community, good for the college, good for the students. And then some of
the new students would come and challenge you.
Jeanne: I didn’t come to Antioch because I wanted to be agreed with or I
didn’t want to be challenged; it’s a different type of challenge. Instead
of having to justify yourself all the time as in a conservative
environment where your core values and identity would be questioned, you
can start from the same basis. Instead of arguing about the ‘whys’, you
can focus your energy on the “hows” and  grow in a creative -as opposed to
reactionary- direction to take action. Here I can argue with people on how
we should ratify the Kyoto Protocol, somewhere else I could waste time
arguing on whether we should ratify the Kyoto protocol.
Ralph: I understand what you’re saying and that to me is a drawback to
Antioch, that we don’t have more people saying “Why ratify it at all?”
Jeanne: Well, don’t we have the rest of the world to play that role?
Ralph: True, but you lose your sharpness when you don’t have to argue that
point anymore.

After two hours, Ralph Keyes had to go, but I had one last question for
him: “I really hope you have a better opinion of Antiochians now—is it the
case?” “Well, I certainly have a better opinion of you”, he answered. The
most disappointing compliment I ever got.

[kaysixteen]

Might could be that the place deserves to die.

[larryc]

Might could be that the place deserves to die.

K16: What would Jesus post? Not that.

[aandsdean]

Jeanne: How would you define ‘toxic culture’?
Ralph: I don’t have a lot of direct contact with the students, but I’m
astonished by some of the things I read in the Record. When people find it
so important to call people out: “I think your values are bad, so I’m
calling you out”, I think it gets to a point where it’s really negative.
There is a certain number of people who like that, who can survive in that
environment. But I think if Antioch wants to get a bigger enrollment, it
needs to have a culture in which the students don’t call each other out
all the time.
Jeanne: In my three months here, I’ve never witnessed a situation in which
we’ve been aggressive or judgmental to conservative people. I understand
that Antioch may not be for everyone. It’s a place where you’re going to
be challenged, but you’re challenged in diplomatic and respectful ways. I
find myself having discussions with people from both sides of the
political spectrum. But some people can’t take it because they want to be
in an environment where they don’t have to argue, debate and reconsider
their views all the time.
Ralph: Is that ok? Is Antioch a place that has room for people like that?
Jeanne: I don’t think so.  If you come here you have to be able to
question everything that you believe in; I think it’s a good thing, it’s
educational.

I'm kind of thinking that this sounds a bit like the narrative of the New Testament.  Just sayin'.

[kaysixteen]

Jesus wants all institutions to survive?  You can do better that that, Larry.

[larryc]

Jesus would not smirk is all I am saying.  Not the smirky sort.

[kaysixteen]

Antioch has hardly been a 'Christian' institution following Jesus' commands or teachings.  Jesus was not necessarily known for snarkiness, but he was uncharitable towards hypocrites, Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees, temple moneychangers, and other opponents.  He also indicates he plans on shipping at least some people to Hell.  He would not care if any soulless institution dedicated to views he opposes (in the main) passes away.

[invinoveritas]

What is a 'soulless institution'?

[larryc]

I love Jesus because he hates all the same people that I hate.

[aandsdean]

He would not care if any soulless institution dedicated to views he opposes (in the main) passes away.

Peace, nonviolence, service, equal opportunity, social justice.

Views K's Jesus opposes.

[kaysixteen]

All institutions are soulless.  That is why no human institution has any intrinsic right to continue to exist.  If Antioch College cannot get enough students to survive, because its students and professors refuse to change its campus culture sufficiently to attract such new bodies, too bad.

[invinoveritas]

You said: If Antioch College cannot get enough students to survive, because its students and professors refuse to change its campus culture sufficiently to attract such new bodies, too bad.

I agree....I suppose...too bad.

Can you tell me what a 'soul' is though?  You say that institutions cannot have souls....ok, I don't think institutions have souls either, but I find that statement redundant, so I don't see why you used the phrase 'soulless institution' unless you meant to make a distinction between 'types' of institutions....soulful and soulless types?.  No point in debating this though; regardless, I assume you think that people have souls.  So, what is a soul?

[spork]

Antioch was mismanaged for decades.  No surprise it closed.

[etcetera235]

"Antioch has hardly been a 'Christian' institution following Jesus' commands or teachings.  Jesus was not necessarily known for snarkiness, but he was uncharitable towards hypocrites, Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees, temple moneychangers, and other opponents.  He also indicates he plans on shipping at least some people to Hell.  He would not care if any soulless institution dedicated to views he opposes (in the main) passes away."

I was so offended by this thread that I had to make an account.

1) Isn't this a higher education website? I was taught from my youth that it is inappropriate to mix education and religion, and certainly in a judgmental fashion.

2) Playing the advocate and assuming that it is appropriate..  Who is qualified to put words in the mouth of a deity?  I don't know you kaysixteen, but I would assume that you do not hold that qualification.

3) Antioch as an institution does indeed support the non religious tenants of jesus teachings, at least as i have come to know and interpret them.
love of all people who ever they are, standing up for what is right and just.

 Antioch's motto is "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."

 Antioch's honor code "Antioch College is a community dedicated to the search for truth, the development of individual potential, and the pursuit of social justice.  In order to fulfill our objectives, freedom must be matched by responsibility.  As a member of the Antioch Community, I affirm that I will be honest and respectful in all my relationships, and I will advance these standards of behavior in others."

To me, those ideals are honorable and christ like.  However I don't think that Jesus hated those people you named. what is the quote, "hate the sin not the sinner"

and once again, do you intend to place judgement upon the community of Antioch?
do you presume to have the divine gift of dealing damnation?
to an entire community of individuals?
Real people have lost their jobs, please they have families to feed.

Thats akin to the view that since a few individuals in a group are violent... maybe terrorists, that the entire community are apart of their support and thus also terrorists!
Consequently we should bomb them to Hell.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with every response in this thread.

I also thinks its really unfortunate that Ralph Keyes has failed to see that maybe the world could stand a little less marketing, and a little more honesty.
I don't feel that Antioch Univ's BoT has been forthcoming with the truth, or been responsibly managing the finances of the college.  There are records that are too lengthy to post here that I have read concerning financial decisions going back a decade ago that led to faculty losses, decline in academic enrichment, and the deterioration of campus facilities. Have any of you had to deal with that kind of climate?
Have you ever been promised something and worked hard to get it and then not gotten it? Oops! sorry we know you were promised 20 things but we only have this one.. tough luck kid just deal with it. It makes one a bit salty to say the least.  Antioch culture is a reactionary one, it is reacting to broken promises, that have a large price tag. That is why people leave. I could deal with broken promises better if they didn't cost almost 40,000 dollars.  What does Antioch really have to offer? Ideas, concepts, opportunity and inspiration.  So they have all the lip service and none of the real physical things that people need. Yeah students are mad. They are really angry at the people who they feel mislead them, and suckered them into coming. So they leave. Or if they do not leave, because they fell in-love with the amazing people and the beautiful land and village, they are constantly reminded that their quest for justice cant even be found at the place they are learning how to look for it. The hypocrisy is maddening.
This anger is constantly feed by the injustice of the system of the world, by people who use religion as a smoke screen for their own bitter hatred for those who believe differently then they do.  Because people are vocal about their frustration, or if they act out physically they are thought of as toxic?

Other schools they have shootings, beatings, hate crimes and random acts of violence. Antioch has heated discourse.
And this is why it should be closed?
Shame on you who dare lay down judgement on the character of peoples, and double the shame of those who do it in the name of god.

Sincerly, A student who has had their school taken away when they were promised a top notch education. (nothing is more distracting from your studies than impending loss)

Sorry if my words sound bitter. Im usually a very cheery person.

[kaysixteen]

"hate the sin love the sinner".  Tell me where this is in the Bible and I will then continue to discuss things with you.