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Poll
Question: Are Politics the reason why we cannot appropriately repair K-12 Education in this country?
Yes - 16 (51.6%)
No - 11 (35.5%)
Not Sure - 4 (12.9%)
Total Voters: 31

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Author Topic: How to Fix K-12 Education- A Mission Impossible  (Read 54320 times)
prytania3
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Prytania, the Foracle


« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2007, 02:16:41 PM »

  I'm sure that Pry's son's school had terrific administration.  I wish that were more endemic to public schools.

That would be true. We had a wonderful principal and a visionary superintendent, something we didn't get in this expensive hedge fund ghetto I live in now.
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prytania3
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Prytania, the Foracle


« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2007, 02:20:14 PM »

Scheherazade,

Did you work under Paul Vallas, and if so, what did you think of him?
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scheherazade
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« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2007, 02:22:30 PM »

  I'm sure that Pry's son's school had terrific administration.  I wish that were more endemic to public schools.

That would be true. We had a wonderful principal and a visionary superintendent, something we didn't get in this expensive hedge fund ghetto I live in now.

We had a phenomenal principal for a couple months at the inner city school I worked at.  (Yes, a couple months - we had three different admins that year, plus the 6 weeks without anyone).  She was horrified at our situation - missing books, no copy paper (teachers were buying copy paper and bringing it in), no consistent discipline, no computers, no ANYTHING, really.  The first day she got there she walked around and sat in on all our classes.  After school that day we had a meeting, and she told us how impressed she was that we had kept things going with the crappy circumstances we had.  She then asked us to each make a list of the things we wanted and give it to her.  She actually GOT us the things on our list (usually these lists end up in the circular file).  She backed up the teachers and enforced discipline and standards.

Unfortunately, she was too good, and they sent her to another school after a couple months.  There were actual tears in the staff room.  The previous and following admins never left their offices.
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scheherazade
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« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2007, 02:27:13 PM »

Scheherazade,

Did you work under Paul Vallas, and if so, what did you think of him?

Cross post, sorry!

No, I came in after him, but from what I know from other teachers who did work under him, he was really terrific.  He seems to have done good work in other troubled districts, too.  Unfortunately, his ideas didn't necessarily filter down to the principals.  The current CEO, Arne Duncan, is an idiot.  He has no clue about education (or reality, for that matter).

I think that huge city districts like Chicago would be much better served if they were split into smaller districts.  They would be far more accountable - so much gets lost in the bureaucracy (and CPS's bureaucracy is HUGE).  The argument against is funding - the south and west sides are significantly poorer than the north side, and a district split would put a lot of pressure on those areas.  Of course, a good way to solve that is to fund districts through the state, not locally - a reform that would help k-12 everywhere.
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prytania3
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Prytania, the Foracle


« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2007, 02:41:24 PM »


I think that huge city districts like Chicago would be much better served if they were split into smaller districts.  They would be far more accountable - so much gets lost in the bureaucracy (and CPS's bureaucracy is HUGE).  The argument against is funding - the south and west sides are significantly poorer than the north side, and a district split would put a lot of pressure on those areas.  Of course, a good way to solve that is to fund districts through the state, not locally - a reform that would help k-12 everywhere.

You mean it isn't? Yikes. NYC has a chancellor and HAD 32 districts. Now they have consolidated some of the districts and so they are much larger, plus they've pretty much done away with local school boards. NYC under joel Klein and Bloomberg (whom I despise) have centralized things more, which can only be bad no matter what the papers say.
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scheherazade
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« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2007, 03:10:13 PM »


I think that huge city districts like Chicago would be much better served if they were split into smaller districts.  They would be far more accountable - so much gets lost in the bureaucracy (and CPS's bureaucracy is HUGE).  The argument against is funding - the south and west sides are significantly poorer than the north side, and a district split would put a lot of pressure on those areas.  Of course, a good way to solve that is to fund districts through the state, not locally - a reform that would help k-12 everywhere.

You mean it isn't? Yikes. NYC has a chancellor and HAD 32 districts. Now they have consolidated some of the districts and so they are much larger, plus they've pretty much done away with local school boards. NYC under joel Klein and Bloomberg (whom I despise) have centralized things more, which can only be bad no matter what the papers say.

Nah, it's all one district.  As you can imagine, it's a mess.  They have 6 regions, but the whole thing is administered centrally.  I'm not entirely sure, even after working there, what the purpose of the regions were, except to create more red tape and provide jobs for cronies.
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maries
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« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2007, 12:09:57 AM »


Yeah.  So?  This is what it takes everywhere, not just in K-12.  What do you think I'm advocating, a nice family dinner?  I'm saying that if you want to force admins to allow you to behave professionally -- say in flunking plagiarists and kids who don't come to school -- you are in a position to do it because the schools can't operate without you, but you will have to organize or let somebody else organize you.  And yes, of course unions are political organizations.  They're about power.  What else would they be?

Since you know "a fair amount" about unions, you should also know that in some places they are disallowed by law for public employees.

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And your mandate is not to save every kid in the world, despite the bulls*** of NCLB. 

Uh, yeah, actually it is. 





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acrimone
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« Reply #142 on: August 04, 2007, 03:34:20 AM »


Yeah.  So?  This is what it takes everywhere, not just in K-12.  What do you think I'm advocating, a nice family dinner?  I'm saying that if you want to force admins to allow you to behave professionally -- say in flunking plagiarists and kids who don't come to school -- you are in a position to do it because the schools can't operate without you, but you will have to organize or let somebody else organize you.  And yes, of course unions are political organizations.  They're about power.  What else would they be?

Since you know "a fair amount" about unions, you should also know that in some places they are disallowed by law for public employees.


No kidding?  Where?

I want to move there.
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tolerantly
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« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2007, 07:48:52 PM »


Yeah.  So?  This is what it takes everywhere, not just in K-12.  What do you think I'm advocating, a nice family dinner?  I'm saying that if you want to force admins to allow you to behave professionally -- say in flunking plagiarists and kids who don't come to school -- you are in a position to do it because the schools can't operate without you, but you will have to organize or let somebody else organize you.  And yes, of course unions are political organizations.  They're about power.  What else would they be?

Since you know "a fair amount" about unions, you should also know that in some places they are disallowed by law for public employees.


So tell me where schoolteachers can't unionize in the US.

Quote
Quote
And your mandate is not to save every kid in the world, despite the bulls*** of NCLB. 

Uh, yeah, actually it is. 

If you accept that -- and I'm quite serious -- you're sunk.  Because you don't have the time, energy, money, or, when it comes down to it, the ability to carry it out. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2007, 07:49:23 PM by tolerantly » Logged
tolerantly
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« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2007, 08:27:50 PM »

Teachers can create an environment in their classrooms to a point - but if they are unsupported and threatened with job loss, how are they to make a difference?  I can't change the union when I'm unemployed.

But your aim is not to change the union.  Your aim is to change the situation.  And since when has it been true that the only way to change an institution, or the situation it creates, is from inside that institution? 

At this point you might reasonably say, "Gee, I really want ____, but it seems I don't have the political savvy to make it happen.  Where can I find someone who does?"  Or:  "Who are my friends outside this little system?"  Our TAs' friends were, I believe, an electrical workers' union.  Your friend might be a powerful voucher supporter.  I don't know, I'm not in your area.

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As far as being in a position to do something, the last school I was in had an entire department rise up against the administration.  The result?  I was - in essence - forced to quit, one administrative transfer, one left for another job after the semester (this was out of 5 teachers, BTW).

You're missing the point completely.  Five teachers is not helpful.  The admin can go find five new teachers tomorrow.  You want a proportion of teachers over a wide geographic area that can collectively throw a stick in the spokes. 

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The result?  Nothing.  The union would not support us because it was beyond their scope (their words).

Sure, why should they throw political capital behind five teachers?  That's not big enough unless it's a cheap and straightforward steward/lawyer job. 

Quote
Additionally, there ARE teachers who want to coddle.  These teachers undermine the others.

Well, if there are enough of them to prevent you from organizing a school-stopping force, then you have a big problem, and you'll have to go compete with the public school. 

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And yes, teachers aren't always willing to risk their jobs over this issue because they have children.  Can you blame them?

Not a bit, and I never said I do.

Quote
Finally, I'd like to point out the example of Chicago Public Schools.  The teachers union, which was pro-admin at the time of the contract (and got themselves ousted for it a few weeks after the contract), snuck in a clause on the contract which allowed the admins to non-renew any teacher for no specified reason with no documentation.  That year, 1600 teachers - including me - lost their jobs, and most of us were teachers that were trying to further accountability.

Again, I'm not at all surprised, and frankly the teachers shouldn't have been  surprised either.  Allegedly the teachers can all read.  Unions don't exist to serve workers, there's a long labor history demonstrating that.  The union exists to serve itself.  That's why I don't belong to one.  But it has tremendous organizational resources which, if you're a good politician, you can use.  If you're a terrific politician, you can do better than that.

Scheherezade, it sounds like you were passionate about what went on in your school and really tried to do something about it.  But it also sounds like you did it naively and with the idea that various groups should be supporting you, regardless of whether their interests have anything to do with yours.  You have an idea of what good education is, and you want to impose it.  In that you're no different from any other politician.

It's not just official politics, either.  We have here a county organization that is -- without quite acknowledging it -- attempting to take 3- and 4-year-olds from immigrant and underclass parents and turn the children into middle-class white people like themselves, people who do well on standardized tests and sit politely in meetings.  The mechanism is full-day preschool.  I happen to think it's a noble goal, and that their middle-class white life is nice, but that they've got a very bad idea, and that they'll have their asses handed to them on a plate for trying it.  Not right away.  But eventually these families will notice we're stealing their kids and and sending back little foreigners (while helpfully giving the parents colored handouts that tell them they're idiots who can't look after their own children).  I don't think it's going to go so well, even though they have all the official thumbs-up they need.

Me, i'm in quite a different situation.  I'm not out to educate America, that's not my work.  I have one kid to bring up, and I'm happy to write nonfiction for kids who are interested and show up of their own will. I can walk.  I have no reason to try to fight K-12 machinery effectively.  It appears that you do, though.
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